Thanks Scott! They are definitely sweet additions to the arsenal. And it’s funny you said that about the mini mill because that’s exactly what I was planning to try tonight! Since it only angles to 45, I’ll have to figure out an angled 45degree block to lay the fork legs on which to mitre. Hmm…so much fun figuring all this stuff out!
Great site – I just found it because i was searching for info on hanks access 65 as well. Interesting the angles are all done with protractor still – that’s one nice thing i’ve noticed on the anvils is all the measurements are built in but yeah worth the extra $ tough to say. Cheers and thanks for the info.
Thanks for the comment Tim! It’s harder than one would think just to find info on these fixtures.
I just wanted to clarify that the Hank 65 has angle measurements for the head tube angle, really nice ones too with large spacing between whole numbers to get it right on the mark, but just no marks for the seat tube angle. So you don’t NEED to use a protractor for the ST angle if you are good at cutting the top tube to the right length from the drawings, but it does help to set it up initially. The BB drop and chainstay length are all marked out too. I’ll go into detail on the jig’s rear triangle measurements in the next couple weeks when i cut and tack the rear triangle.
The TT support is really nice, i recommend it. The springs are kinda funky to attach, but they do hold it in there if you’re tilting the jig in any way. I’ll probably replace them with a couple of toggle clamps eventually that bolt on to the support plate.
I liked the TT support because once I got close with the TT miter, i could quickly place it in there to see how much farther I had to go to get the right length. But other people may do it a different way. I put in the downtube first, then the ST, then used a protractor to measure the ST angle against the DT using the measurement from the BikeCAD. Once I got it as close as I could, I double checked the TT distance with a ruler. Then I made sure the ST was locked down well with the toggle clamp thingy i made and made a rough cut of the TT and micro-adjusted it in there afterwards using the TT support. It’s not a necessary fixture to have added, but it makes it easier.
I didn’t get the fork fixture because after talking to Hank it seemed like it wasn’t what I wanted. It attaches to the fixture between the BB and CS attachments, but you can’t have a frame in the fixture when wanting to make a fork. I like having a separate fork fixture to do forks, but I’m going to also try to make my wishbone seatstays with it (with the 135mm Anvil dummy axle instead of the stock axle).
I have been playing with spread sheets for a new custom bike. It is pretty complicated I just know I can feel the difference between the Fisher G1 on My Ferrous and the G2 on the Superfly. LIke the Ferrous better. A tenth of an inch or 2 difference in trail seem to make a pretty big difference to me.
I like to use a scratch gauge (like the one in your last photo) to see if the head and seat tubes are perpendicular to the bottom bracket. You can adjust it to just barely scratch the seat tube at the bottom bracket, then sweep it across the seat tube near the seat cluster to see how far out it is. I find that a bit easier than using the V-notch on my alignment gauge. You can do the same thing with the head tube.
A scratch gauge is nice because when it is properly adjusted it makes a very easy to hear sound from just grazing the top of the tube. If you get the same sound anywhere along the tube then you are golden.
Joe,
Thanks for the kind words!
I bet Bronto Bikes up in Oregon could make you one? Todd welds up some SWEET forks that look and just are much better than what I can do currently. http://www.brontobikes.com/forks-bronto-mountain-bike.php
Cheers,
Whit
My old orange Ionic Johnny Rotten single speed with Chris Chance rigid fork has been sent to Africa with Mike’s Bikes program – Bikes for Africa. It’s either winning races or delivering chickens right now!
I’m just learning how to TIG weld, so I don’t have an answer for you on the black coloration. I’d be interested in the solution though. I’ve heard that using a gas lens for the torch can do wonders. You get better coverage with the argon and can get the tungsten out of the cup a bit more for those acute angles. Thanks for posting all of your experiences, I’ve been reading all of them to prepare for frame #1 in a few months.
Hey Tim, I put a new update on the Henry James Update blog for the head tube too. I don’t have a lathe so couldn’t make my own cones but found a great set on ebay.
And thanks for the kind words!
Firstly thanks again for sharing your experiences with the HJ jig. There is little info out there! I hoped you could share your learnings with locating the lower HT height (in relation to BB) on this fixture. I suppose it’s not marked off on the jig? I’m slowing working up the resources to build again and would like to get it ‘right’ in choosing a fixture. So far this one is in the front running due to low weight, easy access and reasonable cost.
I hope the newest update answers your questions on the HT height measurement, I forgot to mention that before! I still think this is the best jig for the price. I know people build their own but with the time it takes to do that (research, trial/error, parts and labor) i think this is a solid competitor if you were to quantify it (parts + pay yourself to build your own jig). The Anvil’s are just too much money for the hobbyist even though they definitely have a lot of features that I’d love to have!
oh yes thank you thank you for that update and taking the time to show it visually! I always wondered about those out outputs from my copy of bike cad. thanks for demystifying it. Again awesome building.
unfortunately no. I ovalized the BB shell itself while bending back the chainstays…i can’t even fit a BB in it anymore! Wish I had just sawed them off in the first place and not tried to bend. Lesson learned!
I ride my cargo bike – which is a 21 speed Yuba Mundo, btw – all over San Francisco. In fact, I think its the ideal bike for the city, because it’s easy to pick up a friend, or a bunch of veggies and still climb hills in the wind. I wouldn’t try it on any other style bike
I guess I need to expand my definition of a cargo bike. I was classifying the Yuba Mundo in a different catagory with the Xtracycle type rigs. I can see how the Yuba would be great for SF since your weight is behind you and not in front of you like the ones in that video i linked and found here. I just can’t imagine the Long John Cargo Bike in San Francisco! I grew up near there and just think i’d go backwards with any cargo up front! But I am completely open to being wrong.
according to a memo just released from Dave Hunter, “Bikes will be allowed on ALL terrain at Eldora Mountain Resort.” I think they meant the newly allowed lift serviced snowbikes for the alpine terrain, but….all terrain is all terrain.
Bring up your bike to the Nordic Center! Friday would probably be the best day–just me and Peter M. working.
-Dawn (I used to live behind you in the big horse place on Lazy Z)
haha! thanks man, I appreciate that. I’m thinking it’s not the frame after all and like you say, it’s the huge tire doing most of the moving. But i am going to get the dial indicator out and do some serious nerding out tonight…more later on that.
very nice bike! 34lbs sounds pretty reasonable considering the wheels..
my first build was a breakapart cargo bike; my next prototype’s rear will be compatible with big rims too.
Thanks Bruce!
I don’t obsess about weight, but I do consider it since I does affect the riding experience.
Yeah, 34lbs isn’t too bad considering also that it has a steel-railed Brooks saddle and a pretty heavy fork (straight gauge 4130 with sleeved blades), as well as the tank-like Surly tubes. Changing those three things (and weighing it without the pedals like most seem to do when reporting bike weight), it’d be less than 30lbs.
Hey Mark! Thanks for the comment on the bike! It’s a really fun bike to ride. I can’t wait to get it on some trails once the snow melts!
I’m not selling bikes…yet, I’m just making them for friends and myself for around another year. By this time next year I hope to be taking orders…stay tuned if you’re interested!
I don’t know what the cost of a frame & fork will be but I’m guessing it’ll be comparable to other small steel tig-welded framebuilders…?
Do you still find yourself manually pulsing on the acute angles? I’m in the midst of TIG practice before I attempt my first TIGed frame. My welds are coming a long way but I’m getting some too hot welds in the acute angle between the DT and HT. I’ll end up with some undercut on either the DT or the HT.
When you add some more amps do you do it as you are adding filler or when pushing the puddle?
Jason,
I do tend to manually pulse in tight and hard-to-see locations — in the acute angles, where there is thin tubing, or where the miters are less than perfect (it seems to help get a good puddle going fast but also cool the metal and not burn through). I do it less than I used to but it does definitely help in certain locations.
Is it possible that you’re moving too slow even if you have enough amps going into the tight spots? The undercutting may be a result of that or not adding enough filler? The acute angles definitely take a bit of a ramp-up on the pedal. I’ve found it helps to ‘carry’ a good puddle going into the tight spot as it’s much easier to keep it going that way, but that depends on your weld sequence as that can’t always be done if you want to go around the tube all in the same direction. The hardest thing to get used to, and I’m still getting used to it and learning each weld bead, is how to move the torch quickly on each pass (how to get a puddle going quickly and then move the puddle quickly while adding filler). It helps with shaky hand syndrome, overheating the tubes generally, and burning through.
When i manually pulse, I add the filler when the puddle is at the biggest size, so there’s a bit of a rhythm to it. As you ramp up the pedal and get the puddle bigger and moving forward, you dab the filler rod just before you lay off the pedal to cool before ramping up the amps again with the pedal and moving, dabbing, cooling, and so forth. I seem to move the puddle forward as i’m ramping up the amps. Unlike most of the automated pulser settings i’ve heard of people using (2hz. is the norm it seems), I am moving pretty slow compared to that so I can effectively add filler and see what’s going on.
Good luck with the first TIG’d frame! I was really nervous before mine. I think if you realize beforehand it ain’t gonna be perfect and then weld it as best you can and do what you know how to do, it’ll be fine..and fun! I still get nervous before I weld a frame or fork. There’s really no way to practice all the angles you’re going to encounter on the frame I found, so the only way to get better is just by doing more frames. (Manually pulsing with 1/16″ filler rod also helps a ton when you need to fill in a burn-through hole, which happened to me at least 3 times on my 1st frame.)
Thanks for taking so much time to detail each step of your learning process. I’m about 6-months into frame building and have read your blogs going back to your start. Your blogs have been as helpful to me as anything else I’ve read on the web (which is a lot). You the man!!!
I very much enjoy reading your posts and learning from them. Glad to see that you’re near to getting going again with the new fixtures. My son and I are just now about ready to be building our first frame so I figure that we’re about 2+ years behind you in frame building. We’ve invested in the Anvil equipment and feel very confident that we can design a good frame and get the tubes to be near “water tight” before welding. The biggest hurdle for us would seem to be the Tig welding. I’d be real curious to hear what Don told you in that 5 minutes about the use of the pulser in welding a frame. In fact if you could add that to your own welding experience that would make for a great “next” blog installment. Thanks for all the great info in your previous entries.
No way man! You need to buy a frame fixture to get that beta!!
I’ll try to write something up this week. It’s really not that much info, but it was just a few little tidbits that made the lightbulb in my head go off. It was really nothing new for most people probably, but for me it will help me get a better smoother stack of dimes if I practice a bunch. There’s something to be said for getting advice in person after trying it for awhile by yourself.
Good stuff! My take away is to “lay wire” while pulsing and keep pressure on the filler rod in the puddle while finger feeding (not dabbing in and out of the puddle). I use this method on straight/flat-ish joints (disc tabs) and pulse the foot pedal since I don’t have a pulse option on my old machine. I typically work every other joint just like your used to; constant amps and dab, dab, dab…
Rolling the filler between the fingers is something I’ve never tried, usually just feed the rod in between my index and middle finger. Will have to try that one.
You mention the filler rod balling outside of the puddle when trying to lay wire. I often encounter this issue with dabbing at constant amps when things get too hot, or the puddle hasn’t formed well enough to accept the filler. Whenever I can, I’ll lay wire as a way to avoid the problem since the filler is already in the puddle with pressure applied.
Thanks Andy! I appreciate you adding your comments and experience to the mix. I hope to add to this post with the comments I’m getting from other builders too in the comments over the next few days. I’ve already received more site visits for this post than any other individual post (101 en-counting) so I know this is a topic many are interested in learning about! The Framebuilders Google Group has some comments that I’ll post up soon just in case people that read me aren’t on that list.
I do think laying the wire in there will do the trick and may help bridge the learning gap for now of not being able to roll the rod in the filler-rod hand while maintaining all the other things going on with your foot, torch hand, brain, work, etc. I’ll have to give that a try. I also agree with your thoughts on why the wire balls up sometimes. I know that I get over-excited to add filler when I’ve had too much espresso! It’s like my left-hand with the filler wire has its own mind and can’t stop punching the puddle before it’s up to temp!
I found your blog to be very helpful and informative. I am new to frame building as a retirement hobby and decided to go the TIG way as my primary method. I was taught with pulsed welders and have been getting pretty good at it but was taught to use the dabbing method. I can see how the constant feed would be better. Can’t wait to give it a try. Being new, I do not have to worry about changing my old ways.
Thanks for the great ariticle. Anymore tips for the newbie would be appreciated.
Thanks Carl, I’m happy to help the novice since I was in your shoes not too long ago! I hope my blog can be a resource for the beginning framebuilder. I still am no expert, please realize, and I feel like I’ll be learning for many years to come.
I’ve copied/pasted some comments below that are from the Framebuilders Google Group that resulted from another builder posting a link to this post on my blog:
Brent Steelman: The best welder I have ever known does not use a pulser. But many use a
pulser to achieve excellent results. What makes a skilled welder is
patience, practice, common sense, good hand-eye-foot coordination, and
an ability to focus on the moment.
—————————————————————————
John of User Bikes: I think some people get caught up in the ‘stack of dimes’ look, thinking that is what makes a good weld.
If one is hung up on stacking beads, one needs to be sure there is proper penetration in the joint, not stacking beads for the sake of the look as obviously you begin to approach a cold weld.
I learned gas welding in aviation in the early 1990s. I can promise you there is no stacking of dimes going on there….especially with the torch movement. I weld without pulsing, and certainly don’t have that stack when working with steel.
I do agree pulsing can help mitigate some warping and feel pulsing is the smarter way to work (taking advantage of technology advances in welding), just hard to change the past twenty years!
While stacking is pretty, it’s not necessary. For whatever reason, there has been borne the assumption one needs that look…..
And please correct me if working, but the term really is an aluminum thing.
—————————————————- Dave Bohm: I agree with John here.
The stack of dimes look does not necessarily in and of itself indicate the quality of a weld. Although the opposite is true as well. A poor looking weld is usually a poor weld. Welding inspectors can fail a weld just on looks alone but we (bicycle makers) kind of take the even puddle thing a bit too far at times.
The idea of a pulser has been discussed here and is generally right but if you are pulsing your work at a very low pulse rate (1-5 hertz per second) then you really are not taking advantage of what the pulser has to offer. Many great welders can do this very same thing with their foot/hand. The real benefit is in the higher pulse rates. Ever wonder why a machine even comes with 300, 500 or 1000 hz? No they are not doing it just to compete with one another. The higher pulse rates reduce distortion, agitate the weld puddle to reduce porosity and can affect the penetration of the filler material without increasing heat input. Really these things should be run way up there above 50 Hz. That means you should not use the pulser like a metronome to help with pace. That still has to come with all the standard hand/eye/foot skills that TIG welding entails.
Appreciate the additional information. I am working with 1mm 4130 chromoly tubing. With your settings, what gas flow rate do you find best. Do you recommend 1/16th or 3/32 filler rod and tungsten? I have been playing with both and want to know if there is a better choice. Thank you.
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I use 15-20cfh, and 3/32 rod ground to a fine point. I tried 1/16th shortly but had some trouble getting used to it. I heard that 3/32 is better but I can’t remember who said that and why. I think it depends on the amps you weld at — higher range with 3/32.
Also remember to keep everything really clean and the room draft free.
That 4130 comes pretty dirty so use emery cloth or a wire wheel on the outside to clean and if you have one a flap-wheel or flexible cylinder hone to get the inside. Then wash well, it should look shiny like bike tubing when done.
There are lots of variables but one I found to be neglecting at the start was the careful ramp up and amp control with the foot pedal. As soon as the puddle forms you stop upping the amps, hold steady, and push the puddle while adding filler in a smooth steady fashion. When your pass is done slowly back off the amps and hold the torch still so to not disturb the argon flow while letting the post-purge run its time (10 sec is plenty, some use less, a few use more).
Sorry if that’s stuff you already knew, just thought I’d cover it here to be sure!
That was my first attempt using the Harbor Freight tubing roller I got awhile back but have yet to master. I rolled some 7/8″ 4130 x 0.035 in the stock 1″ dies and so that’s why there’s some definite flattening of the wishbone crown piece. I think it turned out looking kinda cool though so that’s why I kept it. The bend you can get on the roller is not sharp enough for a regular bike’s wishbone stay, so another method/bender would need to be used in that case.
Craig,
I only have used the Harris wire from Henry James. For the chainstay bridge, or where more of a fillet is needed, I use the 50N which appears the same as BAg-24. (50% Ag, 1% nickel), but for the braze-ons i just use the 56% Ag wire.
Lovely welds indeed,unfortunately even after 18 months of practice I can only aspire to welds of that quality. Many thanks for sharing your work with the world via this blog, it been great to follow the developments and is great motivation for us wannabe builders.
thanks for the kind words. There have been times where i almost gave up thinking I couldn’t get to where I am now. My biggest helps were simply to focus on getting super-tight miters, being able to fully SEE close up the joint you’re welding even if that means wearing reading glasses under the hood, and practicing a ton.
You run a nice bead, amigo. I do TIG on motorcycle frames, but have always been interested in bicycle structure and filleting… Do you do any work with that?
thanks man! I appreciate the compliment.
Are you asking if I fillet braze with brass on bike frames? I do fillet braze the rear dropouts sometimes, but not any of the main tubes yet. I have done it but haven’t spent tons of time practicing. Not sure if I answered your question…
Whit, have fun exploring. I used to ride near there when I was at Davis going to school. We’d head up on weekends and do some great rides. We had one ride in particular that started down at the bottom of 193 (old foresthill) at 49. We’d ride up river next to the river, climb up, and then traverse back down river high above it. This was back in the late 80’s/early 90’s before bikes were an “issue.” I am pretty sure that trail became closed to bikes but who knows, perhaps it is open again in our enlightened age. My brother was lived in Grass Valley for 20+ years….so many great trails in that area. Enjoy.
Thanks Dave! I’m looking forward to truly getting lost again and not knowing which way is west. Sounds like you were somewhere in the Auburn Rec Area so many years ago? They have a ‘downhill’ trail there that goes down from FH road to the river called Confluence that maybe is it? http://www.fatrac.org/node/639
Shoot me a line when you’re out visiting your brother in GV. It’d be awesome to ride together!
Cheers,
Whit
wow… looks great Whit… that shop and property are sweet!!! so many epics to be had… you may be riding more than building?!?! look up Tim Pratt and Heidi Askew!!! both GV locals!!!
cant wait to visit…..
We rented a cabin in dollar point 1/17-21…… lets make some turns!
Remember that your weight distribution changes a LOT when you stand up. Did you do the with-White weighing sitting or standing? In my mind sitting is kinda useless because you don’t usually sit when you’re doing bike-handling type riding. For steep/techy climbing it can matter, of course, but most of the time when you’re in the saddle weight distribution doesn’t matter all that much.
So true. I thought about the spacers but that was too much work. Even increasing the bar angle from horizontal (~20deg) for these bent swoopy bars means a little more weight on the front wheel. Better on the wrists, worse on my back. It’s just one tradeoff after another!
I sit a lot on my geared bikes now that I’m older. I stand on the singlespeed but that’s a given. What I don’t like about more of a “XC” or forward weight distribution is the pressure it puts on my wrists, hands, neck, and back. Slackening the STA, using more setback, and using a shorter stem all have helped me a ton with back and wrist pain & numbness. But climbing on steep stuff with that setup isn’t very cool.
Hah…I don’t know, the last ride we did you dropped me! Maybe I’ve changed in my old age. But also, many of my opinions are schizophrenic like Myself and that other guy Me.
I do LOVE going fast! I also love to cruise it without a care in the world!
Around here (UT) the fatbike folks are almost universally hated by the XC skiers, and as far as I can tell, for good reason – unless things are rock hard, they leave awful divots all over the place (especially if they wander onto the classic track). I like the idea of riding when the conditions are right – but people seem to feel like if they got all geared up, they deserve to ride, and screw everyone else (that’s not unique to fatbikers, of course). I think your neck of the woods is the exception – now way are you causing problems for the slednecks or hunters.
That’s sad to hear that there are already problems out on the trails as I bet many of those XC skiers also ride bikes and vice versa.
Opening Nordic trails after dark to fatbikes is one way to keep people happy so the groomers come by and wipe any trace of tire tracks away before the morning. But the Nordic areas are the worser places to ride anyways IMO. Too many people and wide trails. Snowshoe trails are awesome!
Really I wonder if the fatbikers just need to find the sledneck trails in their area – if they exist and most areas will have them, or take it upon themselves to create their own (on the summer trails on public lands). Work with the Forest Service to designate some travel routes before it’s too late!
For me here, it’s really weird. I’m definitely in the exception. I can ride 40 miles on sled or groomed trails to Donner Pass, or take many side roads that go who knows where? There are hundreds of people riding road and mtbs just down the road in Auburn, and as far as I’ve seen not one owns a fatbike (yet…).
Rad shout outs! Are you going to try for Ritchey-like output? 10 frames a day every day for 10 years?
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WordPress.com Meriwether Cycles posted: “I wanted to link to this article published at Old Glory MTB in which I have a couple of quotes. The writer added “For my customers…” to my quote even though I’ve solely built frames and forks for me and my friends up to this point. In the article, I”
There is no snow here and I have been riding Sourdough on my regular bike a few times a week since New Years, you aren’t missing anything, yet (except the SW rides)
I can’t believe it still hasn’t snowed more there. WTF?! Sourdough and Camp D are pretty sweet rides, hard to find singletrack for snowbikes here (so far…).
I’m definitely missing the S*W rides and all you mopes!
Whit, I came across your blog recently. Great stuff. Your current build here is looking good and your new shop setup looks nice and spacious. Build on!
Interesting stuff. I’ve heard a couple or three people talk about their forks un-raking due to disc brake forces. This was on one some bike/framebuilding related online forum or other so take that for what it’s worth.
I’ve only seen the un-raking phenomenon once in person, on the commute bike of a local, very experienced builder. He had built the fork with light duty blades (I can’t recall the dimensions now) and once he rebuilt the fork with stouter blades the problem went away I’m pretty sure.
People do seem to have good luck using the Willit’s brace, which makes sense. It does bug me though that in using one, you end up with blades that have different flexure characteristics. In practice, that probably doesn’t mean a hill of beans to the rider, but from an engineering perspective it seems somehow inelegant. Never ridden one though so I really should try one first, before casting judgement.
People who think that forces below the limit of elastic deformation of a steel fork blade will deform it over time are either crazy or have a very different definition of “time” (heat death of the universe?) than I do.
Now, if you go past that and into inelastic deformation, you will of course bend things. But generally that type of event results in some form of pretty obvious failure (ie, buckled tube, cracks, etc).
Builders who are still afraid of/unable to cope with disc brakes are just freaking out because they’re starting to show up on road and CX bikes so they can’t keep their heads in the sand much longer even if they never build mountain bikes.
Walt, I’ve definitely seen a fork un-rake, yield, however you want to put it. It was a subtle thing, not obvious at first, until the fork was measured. Not a catastrophic thing at all, but it did affect the tracking of the bike.
If you get into the mechanics of how metal yields ie. slip planes, dislocations etc. (and I’m no expert in this) you can argue that the force required to un-rake the blade is less than the force that it took to rake it. It’s going to depend on a bunch of variables, but it can happen. It’s not just a hypothetical scenario, in my opinion, although not necessarily common.
I have built ~1000 disc brake forks of all types, as well as seen lots more that came in to be looked at after a crash or garage/roofrack incident. I have NEVER seen a fork “unrake” without some kind of unusual event/crash. I say BS unless there’s a precipitating event of some kind.
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Walt, that’s a ton of experience, and I give it a lot of weight. I’m always interested in learning more from those with more experience than me.
I can’t ignore what I’ve seen though, so I’m going to have to disagree with your conclusion.
Just to be sure we’re on the same page, are you talking about road bike style forks raked with a curve, or straight bladed MTB style forks?
I do take issue with your use of the term BS, as it implies that I’ve got some ulterior motive in all this. I don’t. I think disc brakes make a lot of sense in many applications. I’d like to find a way to incorporate them safely on curved road bike style forks ie. light gauge blades that give the ride characteristics that I’m looking for.
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Thanks for the great comments you guys!
I will have to admit my ignorance in flexure characteristics and deformation limits, but intuitively I tend to agree with Walt that unless there’s a force that is very close to or higher than the force one puts into bending the blades…then I don’t understand how a fork blade can physically un-rake from the normal braking force of disc brakes. However, it appears that it has happened at least a few times from reputable builders and that completely confuses me. Maybe it’s as simple as they used what they normally use for road blades and they were too thin-walled and narrow profile? Or maybe they didn’t use a Willit’s style caliper mount to help support the raked leg? Or maybe they stomped on the brakes enough that the force was close enough to the force it took to bend the blades in the first place and as a result they moved back a bit. The last one especially would honestly confuse me. I know that when I try to cold-set frames and forks, I’m pretty surprised at how difficult it is to get them to move even 1mm. I still cold-set forks (not frames though) since none of my forks have come out perfectly straight but I think that’s pretty common. So, in knowing the brute force I put into cold-setting a fork…and that happening on the bike while riding and just using the brakes…well crap…i’d be in the ditch from me going over the bars from braking that hard! But I must be underestimating the force a disc brake places on the one fork leg.
I never thought about the different ride quality possibility from one side having such an extensive brake mount like the Willit’s. I’m not sure I’d realize the difference myself but it’d be worth trying with two identical forks – one is disc and one is canti. If such a difference in flexure occurs, there would be possible twisting in the blades and some self-steering while braking I’d imagine? I don’t notice any of that with the two forks I have ridden but it may be subtle.
The new fork I’m now riding has thicker blades and it’s noticeably stiffer in ride and while braking than the last fork (the one I’m writing about in this blog). With the Pacenti crown and True Temper blades, I’m pretty confident in using them with discs. I’m sure there are many other builders doing it out there and it’d be cool to see the data compiled on failure rates and what tubes and caliper mounts were used in each circumstance. Or if someone wanted to dork out and do some computer modeling that’d be cool as well!
Yes to your first two suppositions, in the cases that I’ve seen anyway. Light gauge blades were used with no reinforcing torque arm. At the time those forks were built, the Willits style adapter wasn’t available. To my knowledge anyway.
Regarding forces due to cold setting I agree. The forces required to cold set a fork or frame always shock me too, however…
have you ever flipped a fork around in your bender to take some rake off it? It’s surprisingly easy and that, in my opinion, is what’s happening with a disc brake.
The center of the disc brake pad acts as an instantaneous center of rotation, like a fulcrum, and the friction between the road and the tire is pulling backwards and down, trying to eject the axle from the dropouts. That force is what can un-bend the blade, in my opinion. All the action is happening between the center of the DO’s and the caliper mount. That’s why I think it can be hard to relate to, since it’s not how a fork blade would be stressed when you are cold setting a fork.
As for the difference in ride quality between blades, I think that would only really come into play on really light road gauge blades, where you’d be hoping to get some flex in the lower, curved part of the blade.
The addition of a relatively massive reinforcing member there would make a difference.
I think for most fork blades though, the extra stiffness added by a Willits style brace would be lost in the noise of the flexing of all the other things involved. It would definitely be there, by definition it would have to be, but whether the rider could feel the difference? I rather doubt it.
Anyway, not sure if this helps, but it’s interesting to think about this stuff plus, I’d like to know more about it myself.
Well, every time I hear about this, it’s “well, this one time, this friend of mine” kind of stuff. I don’t see pictures and well documented first-person information. I tend to distrust a lot of the internet-based chatter about this topic from people who mostly don’t build disc brake bikes and/or dislike the whole idea.
In my direct experience building both curved blade and straightblade disc forks, you get 2 kinds of failures:
-Type 1 is when the disc tab breaks the fork blade at the highest attachment point. This spot is a huge stress riser so if you use a Willits type tab or just weld on an extension to a normal tab (or do a postmount setup) you can mitigate the risk and spread that load/reduce leverage.
-Type 2 is when you hit something hard or land flat of a big drop or whatever. Forks (of all types) break where the blades meet the crown in this scenario. In some cases they buckle, in some cases (larger diameter blades) they crack.
You NEVER get failures or problems in the middle of the fork blade, nor have I ever seen a smooth curve introduced/removed (ie deraking) by braking forces or any other scenario. If point loads made fork blades bend smoothly, we wouldn’t need mandrels to bend them over, right? You could just clamp the tip and pull on the other end.
“You NEVER get failures or problems in the middle of the fork blade, nor have I ever seen a smooth curve introduced/removed (ie deraking) by braking forces or any other scenario. If point loads made fork blades bend smoothly, we wouldn’t need mandrels to bend them over, right? You could just clamp the tip and pull on the other end.
-Walt”
(re-posting this, the first one got away from me before I was finished, sorry about that).
The phenomenon I’m referencing is not happening in the middle of the blade. It’s happening towards the end of it, in the curved section.
If you need to take some rake off a curved fork blade you can do so by flipping it around in the bender, locking the blade tip in place, and pulling on the steerer. In this scenario the blade is only being subjected to point loads, since it is touching the mandrel tangentially (curve against curve). The blade un-rakes by increasing it’s radius of curvature, not by introducing a kink in the blade.
Obviously, if you take it far enough you’ll eventually subject it to a point load that buckles the blade at some point, but for taking a few mm of rake off the blade it works fine and the blade remains uniformly curved.
If you like, I can put you in touch with a very experienced local builder here in Seattle who can relate to you directly his experience with disc brakes un-raking forks.
Let’s just say we agree to disagree, and that if you do a good job building your fork, it won’t break OR derake. 🙂
-W
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Agreed!
If the forces acting are understood, and enough material is put in the right places to deal with those forces, all will be good.
Alistair.
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Thank you very much for sharing your findings and experience.
It´s great and refreshing to see the “new wave” and the “new ways”.
Really inspiring.
Greetings from Madrid.
I know those moments and what it can do to you mentally. Nothing sucks like finally having time to chip away at a frame and have everything else working against you. I got a bad tank of argon from the LWS last summer and I had to spend hours making sure it wasn’t on my end and convincing them that it was their issue.
Even though the gas was the immediate culprit, I still get some wandering and overall inconsistencies in the arc.This post reminds me to take some time and check all of my fittings again.
You mentioned having trouble measuring your tube rolling radius while on the bender. I’ve of one of these radius finders from Trick Tools. http://www.trick-tools.com/Radius_Contour_Gauges_9
Pricey, but the small one (2.5 to 30 inch radius) covers anything I do.
Otherwise, contour guages, with the stack of thin wire rods or plastis sliders are good for checking against drawings. Smaller cheaper ones for tiling etc from hardware shops.
Thanks Dan! Great tip! I had no clue those existed. I officially need one.
Maybe one way to get a system going would be to roll a sacrificial tube and count revolutions of the wrench/driver bolt (Walt’s idea there) and removing the tube every 1/4 turn to get a radius datapoint, then enter it into a spreadsheet to get a regression (of questionable accuracy).
But then you could work forward from BikeCAD to the bender instead of the other way around. the way I do it now is to bend to a good enough bend for what I’m looking for, then measure the new effective seat tube angle on paper/calc the new seat tube angle to set the fixture, and THEN enter into BikeCAD and futz around to adjust the geometry accordingly for miter lengths (get the right setback, etc.).
I don’t use Bike Cad (still on full scale paper) so can’t help much on that side, but I think if you’re looking for a curved lower section followed by a straight top section, you’ll need some different tooling.
Fred at http://wolfhoundcycles.com/site/ has a set of hardwood large radius formers, maybe 6 different radii, to gently curve his tubes to the required radius. These would be a tighter radius that the finished tube radius because of the considerable spring back of the tubing. I mostly use 6061 alu tubing, and find that with 1″ x 0.058 a 275mm radius former will spring out to approx a 325mm finished tube. I think Fred only uses this with PG 4130, rather than the real thin stuff.
I have used built up wheels as gentle radius formers. Clamp it horizontally so it can’t rotate, clamp a section of tube to the rim with a g-clamp (might need reinforcing plug inside). Fit a tommy bar in the end and bend the tube around the rim in a single smooth move.
Then there’s the tight little return bend to get the top section closer to vertical again. This would need a guide/ former bender (JMR, Baileigh, Mittler etc).
Using a sacrificial tube to generate a guideline is ok, but I find that different batches of tubing (even top quality seamless stuff with mill certificates etc) often react very differently, so it will always be just a guideline.
All the best,
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Those are great words of advice, thanks again!
I saw Fred’s bender rack in a picture on his blog, very custom and nice! I’d not know yet what radii to make but it’d likely turn out better than what I’m doing now! And thanks for the springback info and experience, something I hadn’t considered.
For my method I leave the dent that the roller makes at the stopping point so that there’s 4-5″ total (including collar) of straight tube above the bend. It’s not as pretty as not having the dent but I doubt it does anything structurally at that point in the seat tube. I may fill it with brass and smooth if it’s a really rough rider’s bike.
I just can’t imagine how hard it’d be to bend a 35mm tube, especially a heat-treated 1/7/1 butted tube, on a wood mandrel even with a bar extension! Straight 4130 would be easier than bike tubing but…he must be strong or I must be naive.
I would like to know how other builders do this in addition to Fred since lots do but few share their methods. Seems like most use heavier straight gauge instead of butted, and have custom benders. JD and the other large radius tube benders don’t seem to do it without failure as far as I’ve seen. Using a wheel is a cool idea, to match that radius and you already have the “bender”. Ever collapsed the rim when bending?
Anyways, all good notes to think about. May be time to make some hardwood mandrels and test them out.
Cheers,
Whit
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If this was something you *had* to have squared up, you can try something like putting a Dremel with a carbide burr into the mill vice. You don’t have to be move the stock fast because you’ve got plenty of cutting speed behind the tool bit.
The downside, and it’s significant, is that you’re either throwing lots of metal filings or, if using an abrasive wheel, grit, all over the place. I have a stash of canvas scraps to cover the machine beds. You also want to wear gloves because the carbide filings in your hands are the worse things ever.
I had never thought of that, but makes total sense if you can securely hold the Dremel mostly square and in place without hurting it…hmm….i like it! Since I took those pics last weekend I’ve got my main tube mitering fixture on that mill i may have trouble fitting it all on that table. Worth a try though and definitely cover it all up beforehand. I just need a little bit off to square it so shouldn’t be that much grit.
Marc,
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this. Kinda completes this thread knowing that it’s not a myth and actually has happened. Maybe the Willits style mount is keeping my forks from un-raking? I’m riding it a lot on dirt roads, 4×4 and other, with singletrack thrown in but not on super technical over the back of the seat rocky trails. I’ll be sure to update if something tragic happens…
Yeah, you just need a little more thickness front-to-back than just the road fork blade. The FB4s work fine, but they have a short taper so they’re already somewhere around 17mm at the top of the mount.
I’ve been wanting to make an aluminum disc mount that bolts to the fork leg near the dropout and then higher up maybe 1/3 of the way up the leg, and have it either slotted or on a small linkage so the for can flex independent of the brake mount.
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A disc mount with pivots to allow flex..that’s a cool idea! I wonder if Paragon would take up something like this. I would like to ride both types side by side to see how much I notice the different in flex.
Discs on raked blades isn’t going away IMO. For example, I just got a blog hit from a search phrase “suspension corrected 29er fork monster crossed lug“. Having a better solution would be great! What about Post-Mount…? Or an ISO that is attached to the dropout (like Alex Wetmore’s custom mount:http://alexwetmore.org/?p=1173) but then only to a spot above the bend in the blade? That way between the two points the leg is allowed to flex?
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I was going to try something waterjet cut that would ride on a brass bushing at the bottom. At the top the brass bushing could ride in a slot, or for a short link I was thinking you might be able to make something work using a half link of chain to bridge the gap.
Or we just need somebody to make a blade that’s 28 x 20 at the top and 14 x 10 at the bottom. Wouldn’t be a ton of fun to rake but I think it would look good – a little bit aero and retro at the same time. You actually might be able to get those dimensions out of a current road fork blade – might have to experiment a bit and run some numbers.
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File to fit is all I ever knew for my first 100 or so frames – if you do it enough, it’s actually faster than doing it on the machine, IMO. Of course, I use a mill anyway because I’m lazy… bike looks rad!
Thank you Cass. It makes it worth it hearing the really positive comments.
There’s something almost universal about curvy tubed bikes that cyclists and even non-cyclists connect with.
I have a feeling I’m not getting away so easy and these types of frames will be requested a lot once I hang out the shingle.
It’s been a long time since I wrote this blog but I did have 1 of those Surly tensioners on each dropout so it was evenly spaced on each side. Is that what you were asking?
I’m no expert (on frame #15) and you might never do this, but I’ll throw the following out so you don’t ever make a mistake I made. I’ve been using the Mr. Rodriguez bender for all my stays. Make sure you think about the disc brake rotors, if applicable. it’s tempting to bend the stays in tight and forget to leave room…did it once…ughh.
Great point Tom, I had been warned of that luckily before attempting my first stays. I can definitely see how it would happen. I drew out the rotor and cassette on the life-size drawing to help when ‘fitting up’ the stays on the drawing before going further (slotting, mitering). You can probably see that I didn’t make these super S-bendy which I did to be safe. I’d like to get the tops to come in closer together next time and wrap around the tire better while still leaving enough room for the rotor and cassette.
Good eye! Yes, they are the newer Deda’s. I am using them because I have a few sets but i think these are less desirable than I had previously thought. The bend is just too big IMO (26 deg) for most frames. You can see how far they go inboard on the BB…that’s just so I can clear the outside of the chainstay with the chainrings. But the benefits of these stays is that they’re really beefy and stiff even though they’re so ovalized, and being that far inboard on the BB doesn’t distort the threads while welding and is easier on the BB tap. I’m going to stick with normal S-bend stays (~15 deg) that are easily crimped to clear the tire and chainring/s for shorter stay bikes. Maybe the new Deda’s are great for 16″ chainstay 29ers though, I don’t know yet.
Thanks for the info!
I too think that the bend is too big in some cases, but they’re beefy.
I have them for my coming build and the modeling I have done suggest that I need to place them like you have done here. Maybe I should go for shorter than planned 430mm stays, not sure yet though. The chainring clearance is another thing to think about.
Whit…I stumbled across your site through MTBR and instantly recognized Devil’s Thumb in the photo at the top. I too thought I was one of the only mountain bikers in Foresthill (Todd Valley) besides Sean, but I have yet to ride with him since our fitness levels are on different ends of the spectrum. After reading some more of your posts, I believe I know the property you purchased as I too checked it out before making my purchase two years ago…very nice. That shop is amazing! Maybe we’ll cross paths out there as I’m starting to increase my mileage and have been exploring the OHV trails out of China Hole (loop 5 and 6 with the Western States mixed in). Come to think of it, I think I saw you with a fat bike on the back or top…can’t remember…of an Outback as you were heading up the divide and I was returning home. If you see a beat-up red 93 Acura Integra in town with a franken-rack on the back, that’s me. And that’s some beautiful work you do building frames…true craftsmanship. Take care….Chad
The BOA cable unclips from the hooky loopy thing on the outerside of the shoe. Makes for easy exit/entry. You only have to loosen the dial enough to unhook. I promise.
So i unhooked the BOA loop for a few rides and i gotta say…it’s not much easier to put the shoes on. The overlapping tongue I’ve decided is what makes it more challenging to put on, it’s not all the BOA’s fault. It’s also not too easy to unhook the loop from the shoe, fingernails are involved, of which I don’t have much of. But it IS doable, but doesn’t help all that much in my honest opinion!
This was a well-timed post for me, as I’ve been sliding dangerously in my shoes when I have to hike-a-bike on rocks. I’m going to check out these shoes.
OK, now I’m drooling ! Can’t wait to give this a go! Ordered the rest of the build today….fairly modest, but long lasting in a bombproof sort of way. The frame is beautiful as it is, I really think the color and the fork will set this on fire…! After the build I’ll get some good photos for your portfolio…I know this one will be sweet. Man, Thanks!
Have been to a course in Golden (Juvenile detention facility grounds) that you may already know about…a permanent course. And Lee Waldman’s baby. Had a clinic there Monday w/20+ riders, and tonite the faithful, burning in the course. It’s real cyclocross, nothing terribly fancy, and enough natural deviations to make 8 minute laps seem fast …..lots of twists and turns to make it near impossible to remember which is which. Then we go at it in reverse….I’m not a very good cyclocross racer, but I love riding that stuff, and getting it right every once in awhile sure makes up for the blunders…..well, seems to. Rained inches here tonite, couple of hours before sunset,so the sky was a yellow haze coming out of the storm ….freaky gorgeous.
When this sort of thing was happening in Boulder, the horse folks refused to work with us, then they were shocked when they lost access to a ton of trails. If you like access to public lands and outdoor recreation, it’s always better to work together than try to ban each other. Sorry to hear that trail access is a problem at the new digs…
Well, i only got out for two rides before it stopped snowing last winter (Sierras). But from what I can tell, the setup is worthy of most packed snow conditions and most of the days that I’ll be out riding here – which is snowmobile or cat-packed trails or snowshoe packed trails even. I ran the tires at 7psi front, 10 rear but it was a pretty warm day with packed snow. It’s definitely not going to be as good for soft snow conditions as a 26×3.8″ setup or fatter with 5psi.
Here’s what I wrote after the first ride on the snow: http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/knard-ride-report-snow/
I’m straight off to get one of those. There’s nothing like having the stuff to make life just that little bit smoother.
Unscrewing that drawbar each time might be just another little thing, but they niggle away at my brain while I’m working, and make me all snarky.
Thanks for that Whit…
I unwrapped my Cyclo race cutter today and scratched my head as I looked at the threaded 1 1/8th spring tensioner. Who uses threaded 1 1/8th steerers? I used one of my paragon tube blocks to hold the spring against the cutter and gave it a few turns before I realized it wasn’t cutting like I expected. After a little searching I came across your site and saw that you are using the same tool. My next step is to use the file a bit like you suggest to get the dimension closer to the finished size. Maybe 450 for the Park tool is a bargain.
For lugged crowns without a lathe it’s a total PITA. I think the Cyclus cutter that cuts both the face (down) and outside of race (inside of cutter) would work better (like the Park version), but filing to start the process will prolong cutter life/money and give a much smoother finish. I learned the hard way…
Alnico horseshoe magnets at MSC. They’re stupid costly but I think worth at least one. Lots of sizes too.
I saw someone’s picture awhile ago (can’t remember who) using a smaller alnico magnet for holding cable stops, etc. in place while brazing.
Great accounting of your adventures. Although, I am sort of glad that you live 1,000 miles away so i can’t ever be talked into a ride so demanding! Good on ya’.
Thanks! It will fit the Surly Bud/Lou tire combo. I’m waiting on a 190 Borealis rear hub/Fatback 135 front on Clown Shoe wheelset. I’m trying something different with the rear end, we’ll see how it turns out. Then I can measure up the tires and post, but for now I’ll trust the Surly tire specs on their blog. My Rolling Darryl wheelset is in use and I just can’t muster up the motivation to swap tires just to measure them up on RD’s.
I look forward to see what you come up with!
I’m also trusting Surly’s numbers, as I don’t have the wheels and the tires yet. Please post the measurments once you get the wheelset.
You helped me a while back with some welding questions. It must have worked since I did complete my first TIG welded frame, a 29er that is still stuck together.
Anyhow, I was starting to think about another project and due to the difficulty of finding conventional 1 1/8 steerer forks I was thinking of building a mountain bike around a 44mm i.d. headtube. But, as you found out, it would slip right over my Henry James jig cones.
I see your advice about the motorcycle cones. In my limited searching it doesn’t seem that they are still there on eBay. I see some cones for sale online but the ones I found are for a 3/4″ threaded rod. I was wondering if your cones are of this type or if they have a smooth bore.
For the larger cones, the ones I got on eBay were not threaded. Once I sold my Access jig (with the cones), Joe Bringheli turned a couple cones out for my small alignment table at a reasonable price ($75 i think?). They have a set screw to keep them in place on the 3/4″ rod that fits in the head tube for measuring alignment and coldsetting.
I’m surprised that Hank doesn’t offer something for his jigs yet since it’s the standard head tube size for MTB’s now.
That fork used the same specs as the non-offset Pugsley since it was going on a Necromancer Pug: 447 atc and 43 offset?
I really like the ride of the 1×0.035″ lower legs. They have a nice flex to them and I like building with the upper “lugged” sleeves. I know many others use straight 1.125 x 0.035 with some kind of support or gusset at the crown and that works great too, and is less work.
Thanks Alistair! It’s funny because I feel like I’m starting over again in welding now that I’m using the pulser. It’s endless the tweaking one can make to the settings. I had just figured out the straight amp values I liked for each tube joint and now I go and change the whole process up.
For sure. The fact that pretty big improvements in results can come from relatively small changes in technique is fascinating to me. I think that’s why this stuff can be so difficult to describe with words. Ultimately, you can only get really good by doing. Having someone tell you what to do can only get you so far. This is what makes the breakthrough moments so sweet.
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Looks boss! What’s the elevated CS bike for? We luvz teh weird!
Thanks man! Trying out the slack n short chainstay geometry on a fatbike that fits Lou 4.7’s on Clown Shoe rims, should be fun. Once back from paint I’ll post some pics. It’s a funny lookin bike…
What amps you running with those pulse settings?
It’s a whole new ballgame to figure them out:)
I use higher amps like 120-150 but cut the peak to 35% and the background to 15% at 1pps. And if I’m doing edge pieces, or something thin, take to pulses up to 30pps. These came from Carl Snarl from metalguru, cheers
I’m having trouble comparing the units between people’s machines.
On my ThermalArc I have a “Peak Amps” setting which I set to 80-110 depending on the wall thickness. The next setting is the “Base/Background Current” which I set to 25amps. I believe this is the 15% your referring to on your machine? If so would that be 15% of 120-150amps and be 18-23amps. The next setting I have is the “Pulse Width” which “sets the percentage of time of the Pulse Frequency for Peak weld current when the PULSE is on.” I’m assuming this is your 35%? I have mine set at 45%.
The last setting other than the purge seconds is the “Pulse Frequency” which is pretty obvious and I set that at 1.7 for the above welds but have tried 1-3, never 30 though!
I’ll have to give those settings a try on my machine. A higher peak amps with a shorter % of time on the Peak current may help penetration and prevent burn through on thin stuff. The 15% is lower than my settings and makes sense to me to be so low on the cool part of the pulse. This will be a fun day in the shop!
Using the pulser was a game changer for me as well. I typically run my peak at 60% and my background at 20%. I use the pulser on every joint and love it. I’m also a “lay the filler” type. I don’t dab at all, I feel like my welds are way more consistent with that technique. Thanks for the post.
Thanks for the comment Collin. When you say 60% peak, what amps is that? I’m having trouble translating the different machine setting names. The laying of the filler rod for me made the biggest difference since you should never starve the puddle and undercut the joint. I like how it fills the gap in the slight miter gaps. I do experience some balling of the filler rod though and that is something I hope will stop happening with more practice.
Whit, I think the confusion comes from the way that people interchange amperage and time when talking about pulser settings. Different brands define the pulse parameters in different ways (as you’ve alluded to) so it can take a couple of seconds to tell which system you’re looking at.
Regarding high freq pulsing, I’ve seen some videos over at “Welding TIps and Tricks.com where this was used. Seems that some find that the puddle excitation that results from pulser frequency’s of 25Hz and above to be beneficial when welding thinwalled tubing.
Never tried it myself, my old welder won’t pulse that high. I think it’s a more recent feature of the more modern inverters. Your Thermal Arc unit can do it I think?
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I did some practice welds today to get a better handle on the settings with some 0.6 to 1.25mm tubing to simulate a top tube/head tube joint. My ThermalArc can do 500pps but I didn’t try it out 🙂
I tried 30pps and it was mildly annoying. I’m sure with practice it would be fine but for now I like 2-3pps max and just moving the torch faster or lowering the peak amps for thin walled stuff.
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Yeah that 30pps is just a problem solver trick. I use 1pps for everything except like filling up the end of a seat stay. That super low background helps me from blowing through, and use enough amps to get good penetration. It took a while for me to get used to the settings Carl at metalguru used. We used 150a for headtubes/bb and maybe 135 for the thin stuff! But limiting peak/background lets good penetration and still keeps it manageable. guru ca not carl metalguru.
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Whit, I have a Miller Dynasty and for it the peak is actually the percent of time that it’s at the main amps you set. So it’s not actually going higher than your main amperage setting. The background percent is the percent of amps (not time) you are set to. So if your at 50amps and your background is 20%, your background is 10amps. I run at 1.2pps but I’m going to experiment more with a much higher PPS in some areas to see if I can tighten things up a bit (like the outside edge of a hooded dropout). I’ve tried PPS in the 30-50 range but the sound bothers me and it wasn’t a huge change to me. My Miller documentation states that anything over 100 PPS is considered high-speed pulse and will resort in a smaller bead and smaller HAZ. Might experiment with that too on some scraps.
Oh, I can do ugly. Are you seriously challenging me? We should probably get Garro in on it too, he and I have had a “worst frame picture” contest going for a while. I think I won by posing a frame in front of the diaper pail.
I have always wanted to take a Paragon head tube and drill some big speed holes in it… maybe this is my chance. There are a bunch of hideous dropouts that Nova sells that would be good… make the seatstays larger diameter than the chainstays (A LOT LARGER!)…downward curving toptube…huge long bi-lam lugs with holes drilled in them? Oh, and I *like* headset spacers… so I’m going to do a 100mm head tube and 100mm of spacers.
I think mixing joinery styles would be good too. Big huge fillet for the toptube/headtube, then minimalist TIG for the downtube?
See? Just off the top of my head I totally kicked your ass. Now go ride your pretty little fatbike.
Oh man…that’s freaking awesome. I can already picture it, please do it! I’ll be happy to lose if you build yourself a fatty to ride in Park City and piss off the nordik’ers. We could have a category at the next NAHBS even. Bikes nobody can buy not because they’re too expensive but because they’re hideous!
But did you SEE my 2nd fatbike? The other brown one? It’s even uglier and it actually has some of the “features” you mention in your comment… Seastays larger diameter than the chainstays, check! The BB cluster is a veritable clusterf*&k of tubes: http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/meet-ts-choad/
We would need some kind of secret society – you bring your ugly bike with a “UB” somewhere on it so others will know. Then we can have a vote on the ironic/intentional winner and the non-ironic unintentional one. I have a feeling the overall would go to an unintentional entry, but who knows?
Might be fun to have an unsafe-bike contest too. We’ll put on full body armor and takes turns riding them off a curb. Whichever bike shatters in the most satisfying manner wins. Bonus points if the bike also won a “real” award at the show. If your frame breaks on the first pedal stroke, or when someone sits on the saddle, even more bonus points.
I think people will know just by lookin at it, no need for a “UB” badge! The unintentional entries would be hilarious since we could ‘brand’ them as UB and totally offend the creator.
Man, this is starting to sound a bit like Sadoff’s bike show award categories: http://overopinionatedframebuilder.blogspot.com/2011/03/bike-show-awards-special-post.html
I laugh out loud every time I read that post.
The drywall bilam is by far the unsafest thing I’ve ever heard of! I’d love to have the category for the most “environmental” bike where if you left it outside for more than a month it’d biodegrade completely. Only by constant care would it live (literally) longer.
I am thinking glued-together drywall covered with a thin layer of carbon fiber for appearance (bi-lam!) might be a good material for the unsafe bike contest. Think of the dust cloud when it disintegrates! And as long as you kept the carbon super thin, I don’t think you’d cut yourself on the shards or anything, either. You could go down in a cloud of drywall dust and get up with practically nothing left of the frame!
Full disclosure on this build and some words of caution for people attempting this type of bike – watch the chainline and S-bend chainstay interference. Specifically, i put too much bend in the 2nd bend so it is too close to the cassette. So much so that my chain rubs on the inside of the chainstay while in the lower cassette cogs. I’ll try messing with the crank’s chainline with the BB spacers but..nothing much else I can do about it now. Crimp the stays, shorten the chainline, and deal with it till the next try. Experimental build, didn’t have the 190 axle and wheels on hand, should have waited! Live and learn.
Ha! oK, maybe you’re not a top ranked “cool frame builder” in your eyes….(and who’s eyes matter?) BUT, you are a FRAMEBUILDER with a fair amount of chop. When I ride my Meriwether I’m really not thinking about what school you’re from, what classes you took, or type of tools you use. I think about the ride. The Ride. What you have accomplished is making bikes that you like and furthering your experience by making bikes that others like. I was on my Meriwether today….single track, gravel, dirt, wind. The bike was wonderful, the handling was forgiving ( rusty here) and the ride was smooth, crisp, and it’s getting to be predictable…..shooting out of turns still amazes me. I may convert this SS to geared sooner than later, as I can’t develop the speed I want and know this rig can handle. So there, Mr. I’mnotascoolasotherframebuilders, I think you are! Happy New Year, Whit.
Hi, Whit…kind of ‘off-topic’, but what auto-darkening helmet do you use? I’m running a Speedglas 9100, which is just fine on 80+ Amp AC aluminium, but tends to cut out on lighter steel stuff. I’ve also tried a flip-down, bit it’s just a PITA and it’s far too easy to get out of position before you’ve even started.
Thanks, Dan
Hey Dan,
I picked up the same hood as you this summer – 9100XX. I set it at the lowest I can (9) and it does pretty good for me. I set it at that when I’m using straight amps at 50-80 and also for pulsing up to 130 and does pretty well. Still not as crisp a picture as a regular gold lens but it does better than the Miller Elite I had before. The Elite has 4 sensors which is definitely better for never getting flashed, but the Speedglas has that flash-guard function that really does help for me on those tight areas. But I agree that the auto hoods aren’t great at low amps. I use a 1x ‘cheater’ lens that helps but overall the auto-green filter is definitely not as clear as a good flip-down lens.
Some others:
-As of the last time I saw you, you had no ironic facial hair or tattoos.
-You have totally failed to use any black and white or sepia photos on your blog.
-You are aware of, and interested in, the geometry of the bikes you build.
-You wear safety glasses when operating power tools.
-You don’t own a newsboy hat or wear a cycling cap under your helmet. Hell, just wearing a helmet disqualifies you from really being cool.
Mitering with files sucks. I only did it for _x_ frames because I didn’t really know what a milling machine was. Once I found out I bought one.
Those are brilliant additions to my list. I do really need to work on getting a sweet tattoo especially now that I’m in California, and post more sepia photos of me at the chop saw.
But like Josh says I cover my balding noggin with a cap, I’m a sweater! http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/page/2/#jp-carousel-3482
You don’t count on the “filing” thing since you state it in a more self-deprecating fashion than a rite of passage…
Actually, you’re not the only one who has been thinking about a snowmobile for this purpose! It takes a really long time for a solo biker to pack a trail with snowshoes before they even go out for a ride – and then, if they live in the Front Range, the wind might even kick up before they get to enjoy the fruits of their labor. But, it’s all still fun!
4.7″ holy smokes! That’s a lot of tire! What does an eFat build cost the way you have yours setup? ( retail) curious as something like that would get me off the rollers. You probably have a long list of orders by now, I hope so, especially if that’s what you want. The SS 29er is my favorite bike these days …. it does everything! Gears next for more speed. Vroom. Hope you are well,
Hey Paul, yeah, those tires are FAT! If you’re looking for this season I’d head over to TinShed and see if they have any Faboy’s left, or a Pugsley. I’d be happy to put you in the queue, but it’d be next winter before you saw the bike! I’m not sure I’ll make the elevated chainstay frame for anyone until I get some things worked out with the design, as well as test it a bit more 🙂
If you put some 2.4’s on your bike as well as gears, I bet you could lower the tire pressure enough to get some packed snow riding done up at Peaceful Valley.
I’ll write something up in a day or two. But if you have the money get the Anvil, it’s a set it and forget it fixture. Access65 is nice for a tighter budget but I don’t think it’s on the same level as the JMan. Version 4.0 looks to be a step up even further…
Thanks, I expect there to be differences. The question is are they worth 2K. I’ve worked with the Anvil some already, but only build 4 bikes a year currently. That won’t change much in the future. Really appreciate your thoughts. Also, I love the honest and true to experience blog.
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Thanks, I’m happy to hear you like the blog!
I think if you’re not planning to sell bikes and don’t need or want to ensure extreme efficiency and precision, and don’t mind futzing with the fixture more to get it set up, the HJ’s are totally fine. I’ve not used the Universal jig and that may be nicer with all the tube holding parts incorporated. But that’s not that much less cost than the Anvil. I didn’t like the rear axle on my HJ, the indexed Anvil is way better and can be used on any if his fixtures or on your own creations.
If I were going to be making frames for a long time I’d save up for the JMan. But it’s not needed and you will make great frames on an HJ. The Access series I think is better for brazing types, especially the head tube access to tack and braze or weld in the fixture. Not as rigid IMO though as the JMan.
Some may want to upgrade to the new version so you may be able to get a used one in the coming year.
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How have you found the durability of these decals. Are they proving quite tough. I have also seen these DuraTAG Ink Transfers. Check out the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfJeLc3ANJo
Haven’t been able to get in contact with them yet but look good
Jon,
The durability has been excellent for the decals so far. It’s not been very long of a test period though. I know SSSink does decals for some big bike companies though, so I imagine that the durability is very good. You really have to take a sharp object to scratch the decal and leave a mark. Getting them off once set is not a ‘peeling’ operation but a scratch-with-your-fingernail for a LONG time until you get every last piece off, then take acetone to get the rest of the residue off. These aren’t in the same ballpark as normal thin vinyl decals, they’re VERY thin and once on there are meant to stay on. But positioning them right is key. If you mess up and even dab the sticker onto the frame, it’ll separate and peel and then you have to start over with a new decal. I haven’t heard of DuraTAG but it looks really promising! I like how you can position the decal before sticking it down. That’s a really helpful feature in my opinion.
I’d say 73mm BB square taper, spindles from 107mm to 122mm or something like this, no?
But I’ve heard that bearings should be shown to everybody these days and I might be the only shy MTB’er left keeping them hidden, non-external 🙂
For BB height, just get a pair of short cranks and a pair of long ones…j/k
Anyway, I hope for you that more technical-savvy people than me will chime in ’cause I don’t think I helped you much here… but I wanted to let you know that I do read and enjoy your blog.
Raoul, thanks for the comment!
No, you’re not the only one, I still have a square taper BB on one bike! They just never die. But i do like the ease of removing the cranks and bearings on external bearing BB’s and feel that they are stiffer. But i don’t feel they last as long as a good square taper bottom bracket (Phil Wood). Stiffness aside, it’s a good recommendation for chainline adjustment alone. I go back and forth on caring about real and perceived BB axle stiffness and weight on a non-racing MTB. We’ll see. I think the chainline is more important than the BB height so maybe I’ll just put a Rohloff on the bike and solve that problem. Wait, then i’d need TWO Speedhubs! Damn.
I have been lurking for a while but I like to keep up with what you are doing because you speak a language (frame design details) that I just don’t hear about elsewhere. That and when I read your stuff it is like your know my thoughts sometimes.
Ok “someday soon” I want to come to you knowing I will be asking for a disc all-rounder 29er/700c wheels with tires typically 38-60 wide, set up for dirt drops, with as low a BB as possible (using 180 cranks) and wanting a tall headtube.
So I am clearly on the urban side of your extreme rides for some reason finding these things is like pulling teeth elsewhere. Oh and using a decent HT tubing, not the lightest and not the heaviest either, still trying to really learn the effects of trail (and the different ways to get there) are in real life.
So yes multiuse, but I also see that the more narrowly defined the criterion the better performing the expectation can be.
Kevin,
Thanks for the comment, and i’d be happy to make you a frame and fork for that type of riding! (It’s actually something I’ve been wanting to build myself as a v2 for my current all-rounder.)
The Trail effect is a hard one to get a good handle on unless you really exaggerate the trail on the same frame by varying the fork offset. I made an adjustable rake fork to do just that when I first started building bikes a few years ago.
I’m sure you’ve read all about it online but just in case Wikipedia has a good writeup and motorcycle geometry books go into it well beyond my mathematical prowess. I tend to like more offset on my forks since that “allows” a slacker head tube angle to be used while preserving a relatively quick-steering feel. More offset shortens the trail figure (and lengthens the front center a bit which can be compensated) for a bike that’ll roll over stuff smoother and be more stable at speed. For something that’ll be loaded and going fast on pavement this could be a nice addition to a low BB. On dirt, it’s been researched a lot with suspension and more fork manufacturers are starting to offer higher offset forks than before (not just 44 or 46 but 51mm).
I am soon mounting up a set of Velocity Dually rims, so that’s my choice. There aren’t many options yet but more will be out in the next year or so (I think).
If you want to run tubeless, I’d go with the non-cut-out Duallys. The Surly Rabbit Holes are pretty good rims but I’d rather have no cutouts and nicer finish to the rims. Northpaw Components also makes a 29 x 47 wide rim I think but it’s also got cutouts.
If you’re wanting to wait for something lighter, i bet there will be a carbon 47-50mm wide rim coming out sometime next year, maybe Whisky Components or the like. Totally guessing there but with at least TWO more tire choices now (Vee Rubber and Maxxis) it’s just a matter of time…
Walt – I’d love to discuss your thoughts on Park City…there is a push from below to create “experience zones” throughout the Ned trail network. Gone will be the experience of feeling lost in your own backyard.
My thoughts on Park City are that I need to find the locals who know where the gnar is – because the local trailbuilding orgs do a great job, but all they build is smooth twisties with a few switchbacks thrown in. Nary a rock or root in sight!
In truth, I think we just were in Ned/Boulder at the right time when “pirate” trails could exist and not cause an uproar due to the low volume of riders. Those days are probably over, c’est la vie.
Hey man, just wanted to say I really appreciate your blog and just spent the last few months reading through all the posts (particularly the frame building posts), as I am currently working on starting the learning process to build frames myself – got most of the tools, torch, etc, and plan on getting the first one going in the next month or two. Yours has been very informative and a great addition to the scattered resources out there to learn this skill. I also dig the direction you are going with your bikes and am looking forward to getting on a 29+ bike soon – hopefully one I design and build for myself.
I just wanted to say that and to also agree with you on the cross-bike going 40’s/all-around bike trend that is currently developing. I think the 650b crowd has been dabbling in this for awhile converting the old 80’s trek mountain bikes into something like this. I recently had a cross check modified by a frame builder to work with 650b wheels for my GF, and the smaller wheels have allowed us to fit some 48’s on it and she takes it out on the trails in S. Boulder, Marshall Mesa, etc, and loves it for that kind of riding along with general around town and gravel road stuff too. It makes for a pretty good all-around setup being road worthy and light trail worthy as well. Keep up the awesome blog and look forward to seeing some of your frames out there someday soon.
Thanks Jon! Happy to hear someone finds my rants useful 🙂
I’ll try to keep up the framebuilding posts, hopefully won’t repeat myself. I find myself searching my own blog for how I did things that I’ve since forgot. Kinda was my idea when starting this blog of my ‘journey’ into framebuilding (hate that term but if the shoe fits..).
Good luck with your first build and have fun!
But does it accomplish the tire and chainring clearances desired? If so, I prefer your solution to the Paragon yoke (unless it requires greater than $185 of your time).
The half-yoke definitely has the chainring clearance and chainline dialed but I’m unsure if it’ll rub the tire in the lowest gears. I was able to put a XX1 crank on there with a 32t ring and had tons of room. I’m pretty sure that a triple crank would fit too. Whether the chain would clear the tire in the lowest gears is another story. Tire clearance is just OK. I’d prefer more room so an adding an arc to the plate in a half-yoke would be a good call especially for a shorter chainstay frame.
BTW, I’ve commandeered this frame for my own to test and am currently re-making Adam’s frame with the Paragon yoke. The yoke is beautiful but i have mixed feelings so far. First, the cost and the added amount of work for such an expensive piece. It comes in two pieces, needs to be milled for internal purging, and then fused together before anything else. Second, it’s very difficult to get chainstays shorter than 450mm because of the design. The two parts of the yoke that get welded to the BB shell are easier to weld when longer (fitting the torch in there is already going to be hard at 450mm). As comparison to show what I mean, Hunter Cycles’ yoke could be cut close to the BB and still be easy to weld. He says it’s a lot of pieces to set up as it is though.
In the end i bet the Paragon yoke will be the same amount of setup time as the half-yoke but a much better (stiffer, lighter, stronger) design. But I’m still leaning towards using an 83mm BB shell for 29+ since you can use normal oval chainstays, get a short chainstay length, and get a good chainline (using a 150 rear hub of course).
EDIT/Correction on my comment:
you can get shorter chainstays than 450 no problem with the Paragon yoke. I just welded up a 445mm chainstay and there’s about 18mm from a knard on a RH to the yoke with 20mm arms in front to weld to the BB. Depending on your tire clearance cutoff one could get down to 435 or so, if desired.
Chainstay length isn’t too short actually on this frame: ended up being 439 actual (17″ effective length – horizontal to the ground). The frame’s got 70mm of BB drop to lower the BB a tad more than the Krampus (65mm drop). I think I should be able to run 2.4’s on the frame too and get a BB height hovering around 12″ which should be good for bikepacking.
I like the 120/95mm Talas, although the jury is out about the travel adjust feature. I am putting it to the test when I think of it, but mostly it stays at 120mm. However, if I left it at 95mm I’d probably be happy too.
I might consider a Float next time for simplicity, but this was readily available to me at the time. In all, it is a great fork. I also serviced Lael’s Reba the other day and removed both travel spacers, so she’s rolling on 120mm too.
wow, that is one beauuuuuuuutiful looking machine! i’m so excited you finally got a suspension fork, yet so bummed as well. i mean, i couldn’t keep up with you on the down stuff when you rode rigid. now? forget about it! HA! no matter, we’re gonna have a blast on the upcoming tour and that bike will totally be in its element!
do you think it would have been possible to braze the yoke together?
Thanks and great write up about that yoke, I’ve been seeing it a bunch and hadn’t seen any written feedback
-matt
A guy on mtbr’s framebuilding forum brazed the halves together but it’s really not designed for that method, they are air tight. You’d probably want to somehow create some space for the filler…?
I’m getting old! And so new school. But really…I’ve had suspension before but not carbon bars and cranks! I’m still scared they’re going to break each ride.
oh, and i only get occasional rock flingings off the fork arch, not enough for me to want to make more room (yet). I don’t ride in mud much either so I’m leaving it. With a RH instead of the Dually i’d have a bit more room too so may change back to that front wheel but I am digging tubeless up there. I’m also hoping with the addition of a few more tires to choose from that one may be a bit smaller than the Knard. Yes, smaller! Just by a smidgen.
Smaller, and more tubeless friendly with a tougher casing, and a more aggressive tread pattern. I’m digging the 2.4″ Ardents on 35mm LB and Derby rims, although I’ve already managed to cut a sidewall on these paper-thin skinwalls. I’ve got 2.35″ Schwalbe Hans Dampf tires in the mail. I think Lael gets a 2.25 Nobby Nic in the rear and a 2.4 Ardent up front, with an EXO casing of course. With Schwalbe Snakeskin and Maxxis EXO casings, I don’t worry about tire cuts or spares with these tires, even on a longer tour.
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Awesome! Looks to be my size, shall I send my address?
Alright, alright, I can wait. I’m really happy with the Krampus as a big-boned 29er, and I’m happy to have room for a double crank and FD with a 2.4″ tire on 35mm rims. There is lots of room to spare, without looking strange. It may be the perfect hardtail bikepacking 29er for bigger taller folks, or anyone who like tires in excess of 2.3″. Glad to see most modern suspension forks are growing tire clearance. The MRP Stage looks like a nice one too.
Of course, you’ll have to get your hands on a Bluto, although I’m sure you’ve already got one on the way.
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No mods yet, and no dremeling of the crown, but I plan on tuning it so I don’t have to keep 130psi in there to stop it from bottoming out. I’m at about 15% sag. I’ve tested it with gear (15lbs plus 2 water bottles) and i don’t bottom out even on big hits, but I would rather have a bit less travel and have plusher travel. Any recommendations from your time on this fork? I really like the fork so far.
Hah, I know you loved your High Sierra. You put a few more miles on yours than mine 🙂
It was my first *mountain* bike. Had a Schwinn Tornado and a Raleigh BMX bike before that. Sadly, I don’t think I ever got to ride the High Sierra on Tam before it got stolen.
That trip looked amazing! Even with the washed out areas, it looked really beautiful. I have a question about the saddle packs, they look like a great way to carry stuff, rather than panniers. Who makes them? Funny stuff down here, Ridley stolen last Tuesday, shows up on CL Saturday ( while I was home) brought pictures and all the info to the police Weds., and started calling them as soon as I saw it on CL…..the police called yesterday, they’re off on weekends….So,I know a town for weekend crime sprees if you’re interested. Quite a few Ridleys on the CL site for $700-900. I guess bike theft is a real problem here. Poop. Hope you guys are well,
Thanks for the explanation. I just used one of the them, and I used two shortish pieces of 7/8″ tube with 0.045 wt pushed over the tube end of the yoke to keep things in place for tacking. I think that work well enough, so maybe it safes making a jig of sorts, it that makes sense.
Already left my reply on FB, but thanks again for the review along with the measurements etc., very helpful. Lookin’ forward to your tubeless review…and to try them for myself.
Just what I am looking for, more in between tires. 3.0″ tires are too difficult to fit between chains and tires and forks. 2.8″ or even 2.75, 2.6, 2.5 is much better. I’m still really attached to my Hans Dampfs for now.
Me too John, ive heard a few stories of riders if the enduro sort riding and hitting them really hard and not doing a thing to the rim. I’m hoping thats the case for me. The rear hub issue i had bugged me, and the bearing is still dragging. Will try to swap the driveside bearing soon to see if that helps.
I just got the fork this summer so it is the 2014 model! It’s the 32mm stanchion Talas with the 15qr. I think that’s the only one that fits. Or I got randomly lucky.
Cool, thanks! After looking at a bunch of photos I think the bridge is slightly different on the 2014. Also just noticed you’re using the Dually not the Rabbit Hole, d’oh! Wondering if that extra 5mm rim width will kill the clearance.
Also just noticed the sidewall wear. Sigh, so far the Vees seem way tougher than the Knards were but I guess not that long of a lifespan either.
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I was running a Dually but now I’m on the ibis 941’s. In my experience, the wider the rim the wider the tire profile but it’s not a ton different. On my 2007 Fox Float with a QR the Knard on a RH fit fine. Swapped to a Dually and the tire wouldn’t clear the bridge on the top. Wheel wouldn’t spin! This new Fox Talas has more clearance, I think mostly due to the 15qr lowering the axle center around 6mm. Speculation there since I don’t have a non 15qr to compare it to.
The best current option for durability and ride quality is the 27tpi Knard in my opinion. Heavy as hell though. I don’t like how the Trax Fattys ride enough to choose them. The Bontrager Chupa’s are the far and away winner.
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Argh, I guess I’m just really impatient and need to realize there just isn’t any perfect tire/fork combo yet. My knards would constantly get sidewall gashes from pinch flatting and rocks.
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I haven’t seen Russell in ages, except on your blog! Nice air – all due to the Meriwether frame, I’m sure!
Jay,
I do like it better than more normal geometry in soft snow. Positioning your weight over the back more has a big benefit for pedaling and maintaining momentum through soft snow. Downhills you have to use more body english to weight the front tire more so you don’t wash out, but I think that may be able to be helped with a shorter top tube/front center.
Short chainstays give better traction while pedaling and better soft conditions stability, and mixed with the high trail/slack HTA which unweights the front axle and gives the wheel the freedom NOT to dig in and take you in the wrong direction on a narrow trail (the soft unpacked sides). You still get wheel flop because of the high trail and your weight towards the back, but there’s no ‘consequences’ to it, if that makes sense. Your front wheel can kinda wander a little and plow through the snow and not take you off your desired course.
I think i’m realizing fatbikes are like all other bikes, you can’t have just one if you ride in different conditions. I would not take my XC bike to Whistler, so for what I envision the mid-west to be like (or places that are always groomed) I’d have a more ‘regular’/steeper longer geometry fatbike to cruise the miles away.
I’ll have more thoughts on this as the winter goes on since I’m making v2 of the latest E-stay fatbike, and it rides a ton different than my 1st e-stay fatty. I had a whole blog post of my thoughts last year but decided to get more time on them…and then winter never really came to my area 🙁
That makes sense, thanks for taking the time to reply. In my personal experience, high trail/slack HTA definitely makes for a nice snow bike (or at least all the steeper HTA ones I have tried don’t ride well in snow), and now I am wondering if a shorter chainstay would improve things even more. Do you have any plans to make frames like this for customers?
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I’ll definitely make short and slack fatbike frames for anyone! In fact I have two in the works right now. But they won’t look like this e-stay one. I’m drawing up v2 of the e-stay one this week since it’s starting to snow finally…and hope to build it up on one of the upcoming weekends
Wow, this is one superb bike, and I know KB will be waiting for it to arrive. What a frame, details galore for all of us who have anyone in our family into any kind of biking. And I guess the only thing to make it better would be personal delivery!!! Christmas greetings to you both, from Jean in NZ.
Very nice.
Are you using the Nova 29er stays? Did you need to further manipulate them to get to 430mm?
I built my first fatbike with fairly standard angles 73/71. I’m pondering fatbike 2.0 and am considering changes. Are you sold on the short as possible CS with slack HT? I have noticed that I want to get my weight back on soft stuff. What’s the idea with the really slack HT and long front center, kind of let the front tire ride up more like a ski?
Thanks!
Jbyrne, I did dimple the Nova chainstays a bit in my normal way. I pretty much have to do all my frames that way, fatbike or not since everybody wants short chainstays. The bend on the Nova’s is probably right on a 4.8″ tire fatbike with 445mm stays or longer. But as you can see from this photo on my Flickr they could use a bigger bend to get down to 430. https://www.flickr.com/photos/meriwethercycles/15645798288/
For geometry, I’m sold on short chainstays because of exactly what you say – weighting the rear wheel to get traction. That also pairs well with a slack HTA because unweighting the front wheel with a long front center (not too long though) and lots of trail to more easily track and push through soft snow instead of taking your front wheel where you don’t want it to go (off the trail). I’ve found with steeper angles you have to be so much more on it (concentrating where you don’t want your wheel to go) than with slacker angles/more trail. It’s just like riding in sand, you can stop your progress with too much forward weight. Lean back and you get through it. I feel it’s a similar feeling to riding in soft snow. Hardpack conditions are a different story, and if the trail is wide and groomed you can pretty much ride whatever geometry you want.
Thanks. The one weird thing is that slack/lots of trail traditionally means high speed stability but poor slow speed handling. The wheel wants to flop and it’s hard to hold a line going slow. But this rule of thumb seems turned on its head when riding in soft conditions. Is there some logical explanation for this?
What you say is true and…all I can say is that you should give it a try. I’ve written about this before on the blog and what holds true theoretically for ‘regular’ bikes has to be thrown out the window with Fatbikes. They are a different bike with such high volume, low pressure tires, and with such potentially soft conditions vs. dirt and pavement. If you think about it, riding on snow is similar to riding on a constantly changing, uneven and inconsistent terrain…so making the geometry slacker like a freeride bike makes sense. The front wheel and your steering becomes less sensitive to every little change in the “trail” and allows the bike to stay balanced while you plow through the varying snow conditions. But if you just ride well packed groomed ski runs it doesn’t matter as much.
What I’ve noticed is that when you first get on one of these bikes, whether it be a slack all-mountain rig or a slack fatbike, they do feel less stable on steep uphills and under around 5mph on flats, because of wheel flop. But once you actually start moving at even a pretty slow speed it stays more stable than a steeper-angled (twitchier) bike. You NEVER are climbing steep hills on a fatbike, if you are you’re walking or have studs and are on ice. I’ve done back to back testing on slack vs. steeper and there’s a noticeable difference.
By way of example, the new owner of the bike in this post went out on her first ride today. She has owned a Ti Fatback for about 5 years. She had this to say,
“Wow, I had an awesome ride. I rode the same trails as I did with my Fatback yesterday. Yesterday, it just about 50/50 walk/ride due to 8-12” of loose deep snow and no one but me packing trails. Your bike churns through the snow with incredible stability – I barely walked at all today! There’s so much less “losing control of the front wheel, falling off the track, and then flailing while I try to restart”. Seriously, I didn’t imagine that the new bike would make SUCH a huge difference. But it does. I seem to have better control over what the front wheel does. You nailed the geometry.”
I havent gone over 100 yet. I added more offset to that fork on the E-stay bike to keep it lower. There are a few new bikes coming out with this style geometry- the ice cream truck and beargrease i think are two.
Jay, I feel like v2 is better for loose sloppy conditions. With the rear wheel tucked under your butt more I feel like it’s easier to get traction and maneuver the bike (need to manhandle in spots!). The slack hta and longer front center are nice in that the front wheel doesn’t respond to every minor body input and take you off track. With a steeper hta and lower trail I liked riding hardpack but not when I didn’t want the front wheel to wander and potentially take me off my line. This is completely counterintuitive to some but in soft conditions its a real effect. Like riding in sand, you want less weight on the front axle to clean it, otherwise you stop dead in your tracks.
But on my current fatbike I shortened the front center and like it a lot better and have less washouts on the DH. A little more weight on the front helped (700 fc). It allows me to manhandle the bike better when it’s slippery climbing too.
How was this done(rim strip)??? What material, tape, strip, kinda covering for the holes? Are the wheels tubeless? Does it stand up to mud snow, or weather well???
Jay, not my bike so I’m not sure but… I bet it’s sparkly gold duct tape that he used as a rim strip. I’ve done it with black gorilla tape on clown shoes and you back two long pieces of tape sticky side together and then tape onto the rim so it stays put. It runs tubeless well this way snow and dirt. There’s a post on Gypsy by Trade awhile back that goes over a few methods I think. But just google gold duct tape and I bet you’ll find something good.
“Stickman” on Yogi Bear is not to keep out fellow MTBers. The Tahoe moto crowd is really sh*tty and does not respect MTB trails. If they are JRA and see a track, they tear the snot out of it.
That’s why it’s local custom to pick up your bike and carry it across road intersections, rather than riding across.
Whatever: thanks, I get it. That tactic is used frequently almost everywhere where trails cross private land or are just illegally built, including where I lived for many years. Motos were definitely one of the main reasons, but also non locals so the trails didn’t get discovered by the masses and then too used and abused. It’s not too surprising how many moto guys are also MTBers so it’s all kinda in vain especially with Strava and such.
Hi, thank you for putting this info out for us all to read. I have just finished my third frame and I’m having alignment issues with the rear triangle. When the the frame is mounted on the bb post on the alignment table and I fit a wheel I am finding that the front of the wheel is lower than the rear. It is like the chainstays are very slightly different lengths. I mitre by hand, I have tried to make sure they are perfectly the same. Is there any way to correct this? I am thinking of a second pass on one chainstay might work after reading this. I fillet braze not tig.
Thanks again.
David T
Hi David,
do you have any way of checking the dropout alignment? Using the Park FFG-2 or the like? That is likely what is going on if the stays are the exact same length. Could also appear that the wheel is not centered if the dropouts aren’t equally spaced away from the centerline of the frame. I’m sure you have seen the tool i use for checking this, and it can be found at Compass now: https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/framebuilding/compass-frame-alignment-tool/
A second pass isn’t needed unless you don’t have good bronze coverage, it’s almost always the case the chainstays need some cold-setting to get aligned.
Hi, thank you for your reply. I am using 12mm bolt through rear axle’s and I’m not sure they can be manipulated. I have one of the alignment gauges like you use and I like it a lot!
I appreciate your advice.
Thanks
David
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Hmm, yes those are much harder to align and nobody makes a tool for that yet. If the dropouts are centered in the X and Y planes then it could be they are different lengths which is hard to fix unless you remove them and do it again. It’s possible by adding the seatstays it’ll make it all good enough. How much is the wheel off by? Also make sure the wheel is exactly dished and true of course!
It is off by approx 2mm. I will try to get the miters better on the next one, I might do a few bb and chainstays /dropout practice assemblies to see where I can improve. As the axle goes through smoothly it seems that I couldn’t take out the miss alignment at the dropouts or they would then not line up.
So much to learn!!
Thank you for your advice.
Thanks for sharing that, i hadn’t heard! I’m wondering what they did to change the fork for the replacement. I don’t think it’s right to say the bending and breaking was due to the length alone but apparently something to do with the brake boss attachment point (stress riser on too thin fork blade tubing?). I can’t find any more info on what they did since they replaced the fork with another rigid of the same dimensions so it’s obviously not a length worry but something that was done wrong with the fabrication of the first version.
I was under the impression when i was writing this blog post many years ago that the length of the fork limitation by some builders was due to worry about FRAME failure not fork failures since you can overbuild the fork to not break but it could put undue stress on the frame and there have been some frames that have split open when forks were installed that were not intended to be used on the frame.
” what they did since ” I just believe they took some heavier gauge steel everywhere . I say that cause I have just bought and dismantle a brand new XXL left over ’17 Pine-Mtn to put some frame saver in it and the fork alone weighs as much as the frame , not kidding . I think most suspension fork should weigh less than this rigid one . I find your blog cause I ‘m looking not necessarily for a lighter one but for adjustability . I want something who can handle my road 700cc wheel ( … or 29” ) . The distance between the 2 dropouts of this heavyweighs forks is 110 mm . Nobody seem to have experiment with adjustable width front drop -out ? But their 110 spacing seem close to road standard of 100mm . The Pine-Mtn got the weird QR 110mm front hub and rear 141×9 mm QR ” boost” , socal ” standard” . Also , I want some removable post for canti . Previously , I looking at Walty Ti for this kind of fork .. but I’m not sure with this chineese co to get what I want . Tks , Pierre …some indulgence with my bad english lol
Hi Pierre,
Glad they beefed up the fork blades! But yeah…that sounds heavy! 🙂
At least it won’t break! lol.
I am not aware of any adjustable front dropouts for forks but do know a couple companies that make swappable end caps for wheels to go from standard 100mm spacing to the new Boost spacing (110mm). I read about the weird Marin front Boost QR and not sure what to say about why they did that.
MRP and Wolftooth both make the end caps to go between the two sizes for both front and rear wheels. But it’s not exactly what you were wanting since you have to swap the end caps on the wheels not the fork.
I bought a set of these, shipped out to Australia, back around then to convert my mtb. We mostly fiddled with magic gears back then and these solved the problem perfectly. One of the best custom bike inventions ever. I have still have them in my parts box!
I’m on a sscx nowadays, but those discos were part of the reason I got hooked!
EBay! I’m not sure who it is but it arrived from Fairfax, CA the home Breeze. They have new clamps for bigger diameter seatposts and silver or black springs.
Awesome bike!! That’s along the lines of what I want but to have the ability of 29 x 3, 27.5 x 3.8 and maybe even 26 x 4.0. I’d have a 83mm bottom bracket width and 177mm rear.
Besides you and you’re not building maybe only Waltwerks would be trusted to do this correctly.
Any reason other than looks for the extra tube in the front?
What kind of bars are those?
Thanks!!
Thank you!
Walt is the master at bikes like those IMO. Especially to fit the bigger tires. I could likely fit 26×3.8 and 27.5×3.8 too but i haven’t any tires to try to be sure. There are others too like Black Sheep and Oddity Cycles that I’d trust to get such a bike. That kicker tube is mostly looks but stiffens the front end since it’s such a LONG frame. The bars are Ti Oddity Razorbars, they’re awesome!
Let me think about it? Send an email to me at Meriwethercycles at gmail and I’ll send some photos. I’ve never used the vertical but the guy I bought it from only was using that head.
It depends what you plan to do. If you’re not building forks don’t really need a big spindle bore, but bigger is better if your shop can fit it. The SB Heavy 10 is the framebuilder standard since it’s got the biggest bore for its size and such a good machine, hard to find though. If you’re just facing head tubes and small odd jobs something like my 9a with a 3/4” bore is ok, but I wish I had a heavy 10!
Thanks for all of this information as it’s a great resource now that I am getting back to building frames. For aligning thru-axle dropouts Jeff at Sputnik came up with these: http://www.sputniktool.com/h-tools/
Beautiful! Aesthetically, and functionally! This is the right direction for bikepacking evolution! Very pleasing to read this build up! Y’all are some bike wizards!
I was lucky enough to have a Whit Johnson built Meriwether and the whole process was amazing. The level of detail and passion for the build that Whit showed was impressive. The final creation, a bike built exactly to my dimensions and vision, is like nothing I have ever ridden before (and I’ve been riding and racing for 30 years). Not only does it look incredible – people stop me on the street – but the performance is just thrilling. I have a quiver of race ready, carbon road and mountain bikes and they just sit. This has become my only bike. I race it, I ride it in the woods, on the road, into the mountains, and to the store. This bike has restored my childhood love of riding. It’s that good.
i have had the pleasure of knowing and riding with whit for over 20 years now. i also have the pleasure of owning three Meriwether bikes. all have their distinct purpose and ride quality and i love each and every one of them. that “RAD Ti” at the top of the page is my newest from him and it’s simply the most fantastic machine i’ve ever swung a leg over! he has been instrumental in recommending geometry, tubing and materials based on my riding style and the terrain i love to ride and explore most. whit is a master craftsperson, an excellent communicator and can absolutely make the bike you are dreaming of become reality! -timmy
I’m also 6’1” with a proportionally linger torso than legs so this bike has great standover. It has eyelets for fenders but not rack mounts for panniers. However I could put a different fork on there like the Rodeo Spork (v2) that has bosses for both a rack and fenders and internal routing for a dynamo hub.
Send me an email and I’ll send more detailed photos of you want? Meriwethercycles@gmail.com
I can build racks for other frames but I’d need the frame shipped to me to use it as the “fixture”, so it would get costly. May need to add eyelets to the frame and that would mean a lot more work in stripping the paint, adding the attachment points, and repainting. So I’m up for figuring out something that would work but it isn’t super simple or cheap!
Nice! I repurposed my Moots Mooto-X 29 into a single speed “gravel grinder-commuter” bike with Salsa Cowchippers. Totally transformed it I Want to ride more! 👍
beautiful rig. JK and I did the Vermont Gravel Growler last summer (early September 2019) and I couldn’t stop looking at this bike. All-rounder, for sure.
I’ve yet to do a Pinon but will be making one this year for a fatbike. With a belt I would do it differently and make it asymmetric to minimize the chance of dropping the belt from flex
What a great story!! Thanks for sharing. As an old guy I appreciate how great the new and refreshing the sport was and how big it got only to retract over time.
Thanks for sharing your early passion for the sport!
Excellent story Whit! I haven’t heard of Ionic in a very long time. I thought those bikes were so cool! I was always into the smaller brands coming off my GT Karakoram. Everyone was into XC racing at that time as was I. It was “fun” at the time but I was only a mid-pack racer and enjoyed it to a point. Riding backcountry was the best and always will be compared to XC racing.
I am really loving that bike! Alas, it received its first christening with “dog team droppings” (aka dog poop from the local mushers) and so lost it’s new bike smell, but I am still really enjoying it. 🙂 Thanks again!
I totally get this bike. Except for my rim brakes, it seems similar to my Bantam drop bar bike. I admire your work, and am pondering getting in your queue for my next project.
Love this. Also near 50, and recall seeing those IRD Stoker frames at the Revenge of the Sisqiyous in southern Oregon in like ‘89-‘90 and thinking “that’s the future”. Took about 30 years and that geometry seems to be where things are landing again (but with lower bb- the Stoker has a crazy high BB).
Also hoping to one day wind up in this build queue, admire your work and approach to builds.
That’s so cool, I never saw one in person. It’s good the BB’s have lowered since that design.
It’s amazing to see what has been done already and what we as a community circle back to and try again with some improvements. It’s a simple hardtail frame but it never stops evolving!
I worked in a small bike shop in Colorado Springs when I was in college in the 90’s, and Doug Bradbury had a little shop in the back. I wanted one of those aluminum frames so bad. Anyway, this OGATB is totally my jam, and that carry handle is the shit. Love it.
Oh man that had to be so cool to have him back there tinkering, he is a legend! That dual suspension he made with basically a Manitou 1 fork as the seatstays was awesome.
It all sounds familiar except I had to wait 10 years for my 1st MTB ,(’83 Sierra) cuz there was no such thing until then. I did try a couple full suspension bikes both 26″ a Fisher and then Titus Motolites. Fun for downhill but otherwise blah. The Haro Mary 29er hardtail changed my mind forever.
Overall, your braze job finished up looking ok. 4130 often has a coating on it that doesn’t immediately cook off, so cleaning the metal before fluxing is tantamount. Fine sandpaper (inside the tube as well) and then a short soak in citric acid and rinse will clean them up. Regulator pressures of 4-6psi work best for me, and I often adjust the oxygen pressure a bit lower to get that slightly fuel rich brushy flame.
Patience and flame placement is key; keep it moving and spend more time on the thicker bits. The dropouts will need more time with the flame on them.
This is an older post, so maybe you are past all this now.
Much food for thought and action here, though I’ve meddled quiet profusely with my bike fits, this caused me to re-examine and change how and where my mass centers on the wheels. Something as simple as sliding my ass back while riding gave valuable insights into handling. Many thanks. Cheers!
What a thing of beauty! Thanks for getting me amped on a cold rainy day. How do you keep creating such sexy trail slaying machines Whit? 415mm chain stays got me hot and bothered. Fantastic color too!
I’m a north east snowboarder that is trying to relearn to ski. It’s hard work. I also have a hard boot splitboard set up that is a game changer. You should take a look at the new hardboot tech out there! Thanks for putting this out there. And glad you’re healing well!
Man Whit, what a story. Snow is always tricky to gauge. Didn’t realize you were such a ski addict. I love BC skiing but living in So Cal made it tough to get enough time in. In college we just rented xc stuff and taught ourselves. After a season we we having a blast doing runs at Mt Pinos our closest area. We used to rent a
backcountry hut at Rock Creek and spend a few days in the bowls above there. The ski out to 395 was always a big rush. We were on steel edged xc skis Voile 3 pins and big leather tele boots.
Hope you heal fast!
Thanks Mike! I hope I’m ready to ride my bike this summer, something to look forward to…
The ski and binding tech has come so far, it’s astonishing when I think what you (and me for a short while) skied on downhill. Great for touring with those leather boots and 3-pins but downhills were kinda funny and terrifying at the same time. Seeing good skiers on that setup was amazing. Revenge of the Telemarkers!
Such a great story Whit. A reminder that the unexpected happens to even the most experienced and prepared. Those tiny details matter. Get well soon! And enjoy some much deserved downtime.
That shot of you getting lifted into the helicopter is epic! That actually looks really fun (if your leg wasn’t broken). Hope you heal fast and hope the surgeries go well.
I did tib plateau fx in 2017, but non displaced. Lots of knee pain these days if I don’t stretch my quads frequently and nearly excessively. It was 2 years after hitting a tree and breaking most of my right side ribs. I’m in the middle of a slipped rib episode I assume is a side effect from that thoracic injury and make a lot of noises when I bend over to tie my shoes.
It is a, although maybe all of them are, difficult injury at a difficult age. I have some notion that gen x is first wave of adults who grew up as action sports heroes and we are all just getting to age where we have to start about how to transition to less risk or fewer big hits and it doesn’t always compute.
During the pandemic I’ve felt bad for folks that have never had a serious injury and had to experience extreme patience for processes that are out of their hands. You can do the pt when it’s time, but you can’t make that time come any faster.
Best of luck. I hope tranquility and grace find you on your journey.
Ay good on ya! Insta was where I found ya Whit and you’ll be missed there. But glad to be following along here and keen to see what’s next, no matter where ya post it!
Sounds like they’re trying to establish facial recognition or something sinister. I would bail on it too. Hope that doesn’t hurt business for you at all – can’t imagine it would.
I love it!! Would post the geo and max tire size etc with your posts? Just really curious.
As always your work is amazing!!
Hope you back to 110% real soon!
What did you do with the rear! 177 or 197 spacing? 83mm or 100mm bottom bracket shell? Wonder he wants it did a summer bike as well.
Enjoy your posts!!
Jay
Thanks Jay! We went with the 197 rear axle and a 100mm BSA shell. Primarily it’s a fatbike with clearance for 4.8’s at relatively short chainstays so needed the wider chainline and Q. So it is kinda a wide one to pedal as a 29+
Hey Whit, just popping in to say thanks again for making such great machines. I truly hope to ride mine forever. I will be checking in here like these others as well. Cheers!
I’m so sorry this happened to you, urging a hard injury over time can really be difficult, and getting “back to normal” is never the same normal. I think of you often Whit. 😊👍‼️
Thanks for the update. It is crazy to see the photos of all that internal hardware. Speedy recovery and I look forward to riding with you in 2023. Here is to a better 2023!
I’m a big fan of 27.5 fat but may not be for everyone. Can theoretically run a narrower tire and have similar float to a fatter 26, and will fit in frames easier and with a narrower Q and chainline. But the fattest tires are still only available in 26 so if you’re riding a lot of soft snow you’re better off sticking with 26.
Amazing work as always Whit! If ya working on a couple “stock” models then I reckon a mid-fat (4″) midtail is worth considering. I reckon like there’s a (tiny!) gap in the market there now since the Salsa Blackborow and Surly Big Fat Dummy have both been discontinued. And you’ve built enough similar bikes to be able to nail the design and fabrication on something like that.
Interesting that you wanted to build somethin like this. I’ve had 3 Bridgestone’s ( 89 RB-1, 91 MB-2 and a 84 700 Tourer) I Was a big fan during that time. I never wanted an XO-1 as I don’t care for the Mustache bars. I did have a few early Rivendell’s, a Hillborne which I did not like as it was too stiff/poor handling and a Rambouillet (8-5-8 tubing!) which was a great bike but only fit 35mm tires.
These days all of my bike tend to be lower trail geometry Two are in the high 40’s with 700x47mm and 700 x 57 tires. (73hta and 62mm rake) Even the big green bike with 29 x 2.6″ ties is only 66mm of trail. I’m so used to riding these low trail bikes that anything else just feels slow to turn.
I hope your knee continues to heal as surgery has it’s own set of complications.
That’s a lot of cool bikes! Other than the X0-1 we had similar tastes.
The Riv’s were such a genre of their own, and now especially with the super long chainstays.
After another week of riding the bike i’m extremely happy with how it turned out. It’s been interesting to experience the relatively low trail, being so different than what I’m used to. It really steers from the front of the tire instead of the back…a solid feeling on the road! On my OGATB with a 69 HTA and 60mm of fork offset you definitely feel the flop, involving more leaning and counter-steering from the rear of the tire like high trail mountain bikes, which are great at high speed on rough trail but that’s not how i ride most of the time anymore. I have yet to take MW-1 off road and probably won’t for awhile but i am curious how the low trail bikes handle on dirt.
One thing i learned from fork building with different rakes is that the higher rake forks tend to smooth out the chatter, my thought is because of the longer front center. But I haven’t tried all the variations so generalizations are pretty tough for me to hold on to.
That is such an insanely cool bike! Well done. The amount of thought and details is tremendous!
I have used the cross check in a budget similar role but nowhere near as well thought out. I found the cross check too flimsy and turns out the geometry is identical to a Karate Monkey if you adjust for tire size and the Karate Monkey has been my go to all around gravel type commuter with fenders forever.
Such a cool bike! Really love hearing your design and spec choices. Are those the Whiskey Winston handlebars?
I’m a pretty reluctant road cyclist myself, preferring to ride on dirt. But when a friend sold me a custom light steel tubed 54cm 650b rim brake low trail randonneuse for a great price I had to give it a go (I think the builder meant to clone it off of a Crust Lightning Bolt but I’m not sure as I’m the 3rd owner). I’ve used it with Nitto Noodle bars, Nitto x Riv Albastache bars, and currently René Herse Randonneur bars. The Albastache bars went on while I waited for the Rando bars to show up, and then those got lost in the mail, so I ended up putting many many miles on the Albastache bars including a 114 mile ride. I’m one of those people who absolutely fell in love with them. We had a headwind for a lot of that big ride so I spent most of the ride in the “hoods”. But when bimbling along the bike paths it’s so nice to be able to be on the flat parts. Another randonneur-style frame/fork is entering my life shortly so I plan to put the Albastache bars back on to get back on that XO-inspired feel. Oh, and it’s very low trail (45ish) and feels great on gravel, and sketchy on the kind of singletrack that you shouldn’t be on riding a thin-walled steel tube bike anyway.
You’re the mad scientist of bike builds! Mike is your enabler or you’re his!! I love it!!
I have a Funk La Ruta plus.
I’ve used it for bikepacking and only notice slight if any rear lateral flex with a seat bag….they move a lot on their own.
I’m planning to use an axle based rear rack system and hope this doesn’t put too much lateral force isolated to the rear.
I mention this as you indicated you reviewed failure loads of the design. I’m curious of your thoughts on using a rack in this manner. I plan no more 25 pounds.
Thanks for posting these builds!!
Haha… I think I’m his enabler, always a challenging build with his ideas!
I’ll be interested to hear how the new rack setup works since I really don’t know how it’ll fare. I’ve made a rack for my SilkTi that pivots at the seat tube collar and is attached at the rear dropouts. With light weight I’m sure it’ll be unrecognizable but with more weight on just the rear triangle there may be some chattering like a garbage truck. But with the La Ruta you can up the PSI and see if that helps offset the added weight… so I’m not sure what’ll happen!
What rack will you be using, OMM?
So far, I picked up a pair of WTB Venture 700×50 which have handled the “gravel” around the American River Parkway pretty well this winter with only 3 rides. I’ll know more as the miles add up. They roll pretty well on pavement and clear the sandy mud pretty fast. That impressed me. The Vittoria Terrano XC’s had no traction but they are pretty much a slick. Glad to know I’m not one to keep tires.
I love the Venture tires, way more grippy on dirt than I expected based on tread pattern. At the start they kept a lot of dirt in the tread to fling out at me, lol, but got better as they wore in. Good to know about the Terrano’s, haven’t tried those.
I want. Dare I ask, would you be willing to fabricate another? This build checks all the boxes. Please let me know if you kept all the jigs and are willing to go another round.
Unless the design is let go by Funk, I don’t feel comfortable making more. I’ve reached out to Funk to ask permission but have not received a response after a few months waiting.
Please call me. I want to order one of these from you! Yes, I know Daryl (I’ve owned a la Ruta… two of them). This is next level. I’m swooning. Ready to order: 3036536921
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I’m sorry but i’m not making more of these, one and done. I’ve been asked a couple of times by other people and also declined. I would reach out to Blacksheep, Ti Cycles, or Sanitas Cycles as they all make softails that could be modified to fit larger tires.
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Planning my next road/gravel frame around a Sabre Pro TR 29×2.6. Gotta start with the tires first, Right?!
I can only imagine all the decisions your deal with and also education your customers or having to problem solve what they want.
I had a custom frame built a 29 x 2.4 drop bar monster cross about 5 years ago. I went back and forth on tubing, curved or straight seat tube, geometry, and so many other things!! I’m still happy with it.
I’ve got too many bikes right now and my go to bike is an old 2010 Moots YBB singlespeed 29. It’s still a great bike!
You also really build some out of the box bikes!!! I love what you do!!
How can I buy one?
Is that possible?
Lemme know please and SAAAWEEEEET RIG DUDE!!!! I had the Ibis Silkti. I NEVER SHOULD HAVE LET THAT ONE GO. DANG IT!!!!!!!!
Bri
I can let you know if I ever hear back from Castellano that he has made more shocks and chainstay plates but i’m pretty sure there’s not enough demand for him to order the minimum qty and pay it off over time.
Smiling after reading this as I think about my rigid steel Ritchey Outback from 1990… Rode that thing everywhere, at the crazy speeds of youth, over the same trails that now have 160mm+ travel dual suspension Enduro ‘bros zipping around chatting about specs.
The picture on the Ritchey brochure from that era is still lodged in my head: just get on a bike that can go anywhere, and explore. Simple.
Money is the least important measure of success, but unfortunately we need it to survive… But now new doors can open. I’m sure your talents will be put to good use!
As a small frame builder – never making the jump to making bikes for others, just alot of frames for myself including gravel, mountain and even a full squish I have always referenced your blog and builds for help along the way. Thank you for your contribution and hope you keep showing us your experience and craftsmanship on your own projects. Thank you.
You are an artist and master of your craft! I’m happy that you were able to follow your dreams and understand the reality of it all.
You and your builds have been an inspiration!!
Wish you all the best!
Jay
Sgt. Ordway’s Last Entry, Sept. 23, 1806
“Drew out the canoes then the party all considerable much rejoiced that we have the Expedition Completed and now we look for boarding in Town and wait for our Settlement and then we entend to return to our native homes to See our parents once more as we have been So long from them.”
—John Ordway
My only regret is that when I was finally well enough to ride a Meriwether, it was beyond my means. I have my ballcap and socks and memories of what could have been. Fare well, Captain Meriwether! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
Hard to hear, but I understand and I’m very grateful for all the wonderful things you’ve done for me. I love my Meriwethers, it’s all I ride, and it’s the connection in the word MERIWETHER that make me think of you and you’re entire crew.
Sorry you’re closing shop, but you’ve left some big tire tracks to fill. ❣️
Yo mate! A shame it couldn’t work out for ya financially but it’s hard for me to think of a builder that’s had more success over the past decade. I’ve never had the privilege of riding one of you’re frames but everything you’ve shared here and in Instagram has been hugely inspiring, especially in the world of off-road touring. Hopefully a step away from building building full time gives you the chance to enjoy a few more rides and have bit more fun making things. Defo keep sharing if ya can. Keen to see where the future takes ya! 🙂
Dang, Whit. You’re one of the good ones. Straight rear triangles, stacked dime welds, excellent vision and execution. You know I’m a fan and I’ll be here for ya in any way possible.
It takes courage to make such a transformation. Seeing the pink Baja Divide bike you built for Nic Carman at nahbs in 2017 is largely what drew me into this adventure fabrication world! Thank you for the big inspiration, hope you enjoy fabricating more now without the business expectations. – Dan
Your ability to create a bike that does what a customer dreamed it should do is a true talent. I hope you can find something that will pay the bills and have some spare time for your passions also
Well shoot Whit. I’m sorry to hear a chapter of your life is ending. I can relate. But rest assured I have absolute respect for your talent and patience. My Meriwether is a treasured possession. We are under wildfire threat and if the worst happens, I’m loading it first thing. I wish you the best in whatever you choose to do. If there is anything I can be a part of reach out. info@canyonsew.com. Your legacy from this past chapter of your life will go on for miles and years. Well done brother.
Max was a dear friend. We talked bikes, art, filmmaking and life in general. We rode, always laughing along the way. His laugh was infectious. He built me a cross bike that to this day, holds a special spot in my heart. Straddling that bike, I have been lucky enough to pull out some wins, crash, laugh, and sometimes feeling like there is no chain, just pure joy and effortless forward movement.
Max would have been proud of the collaboration and outcome of this project with Rob and Whit. I’d say his work rivaled Kent, Brad and just about anyone in the Ti space. So, with that, this is in good company.
If you are curious, here’s a little clip about Max:
Thank you for the write up and the happy tears that well up thinking about Max. As we say in the 333FAB family: Ride on Max, Ride On.
Thanks Tarrell, I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish I got a chance to meet him. I know his spirit and legacy live on in the bikes but more importantly in the connections he made with the people.
I appreciate your writing style and content very much. I hope you can find a niche in bicycle literature. I am glad to hear you are spending more time pedaling and less time making others cycling dreams come true. Thank you for all that you give to cycling.
This excellent. I can relate to all of it, even though I never turned pro myself. After 15 years of framebuilding as a “hobby”, I had a chance to move to California where I had plans to take my framebuilding to the next level. It never happened. The town I moved to burned down in a wildfire a few months after arriving there and I lost everything, sending my life on a very different trajectory. I often wonder if not for that fire could I have “made it” as a framebuilder? My guess is that the chances were slim, at best.
I don’t own a Meriwether (because I don’t really bike) but still sad to hear this and wishing you the best on your next adventure, Whit. You went for it for 15 years — that’s a great run. Maybe time to start building ramps again?
Whit, I received this post and about 50 other posts last night. Not sure if you meant to send them out to people who subscribed to your blog, but it was a download to my email.
I’m sorry, it was unintentional. I was making old blog posts public again (made them private after using thr website for business) and it spammed all subscriber’s inboxes and I didn’t know until all those emails were sent.
Nicely written!
I just got a second frame from Fitz, and it went just as you say: updates to the last frame, with a longer front and rear, shorter stem, and way more bikepacking zits than the 2019 frame.
Thanks Whit! Always appreciate your posts – they are articulate, honest, and instructive. Glad there are still folks like you thinking about how to make things better, at any scale!
It’s easy to glass over a new component or accessory & not consider what effort goes into it’s development. Thanks for sharing your process and some of your knowlege. Like your bikes, I feel that the beauty lies in the utility. Your aesthetic always hits me just right.
Tele-tongue was the first name for your rack that popped into my head. Kinda goofy. Maybe just a working title.
The BeBop is what I’m going to dub it. You referenced it’s trombone quality, and that instrument really came to prominence in the Bebop jazz-era. I also feel like it’s appropriate verbage to describe the vibe of many great bike rides. A win win!
Thanks for continuing to share all you’ve learned over the years with the rest of us & keeping the Merriweather spirit alive in this way.
Thanks for these posts! I really enjoy all your thoughts and insights.
For a name: Ti Rack…like getting ready for business you tie one on, and getting ready to BikePack you chose the Ti Rack TCB “take care of business”
Thanks,
Jay
Hey Whit- sorry if you’ve covered this before but I’d love to know if you’d consider doing what Black Mountain Cycles, Stinner (for some), Sklar, Neuhaus do in terms of having your designs built up in Tawain to increase scale? I was so stoked on the ponderosa but pricing was jusssst still out of reach and I still dream about having one of the orangesickles in 58!
Would you consider ever doing a Tawain made run of ponderosas even just in the most popular sizes (a la Crust Derecho for example which was only made in 3 sizes)?
Would you ever take on an investor/partner to be able to “do what you love” at scale?
I’ve been enjoying reading your reflections in this time and would be curious to know your thoughts on going the route of having frames made for you vs making them yourself. Appreciate you!
Hey Christian,
Thanks for the interest and thoughtful comment. It’s something I’ve considered, and haven’t ruled out, but it’s an entirely different business model (and aside from the startup costs which are not insignificant) I wouldn’t be doing what I love anymore. I’d mostly be doing the parts of the business I enjoy the least. I’d also have trouble letting go of what people are riding and experiencing. In my opinion, frames made there are a different product from what we as small scale domestic builders can offer. To my understanding, when you get frames and forks made in Taiwan they take your design and see if it passes their fatigue tests. If it doesn’t pass you either adjust the design (beef up the frame and/or fork tubing or change the design entirely) or take on full liability yourself. If it fails their testing then they wouldn’t assume responsibility, it’d be left up to me to warranty and deal with any potential larger legal issues.
Basically, it’s not what I envisioned when creating Meriwether. Pivoting to overseas manufacturing wasn’t a long term goal. There are so many other great builders and bikes available now, so many great choices! I like that I succeeded in making something people love and will ride for a long time, and I did it myself.
…it’s a lot to get into in replying to your comment. I’ve been working on a blogpost for several weeks that talks about this but I am having trouble wrapping it up because my thoughts and opinions are still evolving…
Update on suspension forks and axle to crown measurements. Intend BC Samuri is available and for 100mm travel is about 545mm. Fox is rumored to have one coming out late next year and be a similar length for the 100 and around 565 for a 120mm. I saw a photo of a Manitou one-off but have not heard if they have a production model coming. Rock Shox will have something too but I have no clue what.
I’m afraid I’m going to have to try a 32″ setup this spring. Do you have an idea of where you think the sweet spot is for fork offset? Does 100mm feel right for bottom bracket drop? It’s interesting to think about these numbers in the context of a new platform.
It’a hard to say since I don’t have other forks to compare against, but knowing the shocks coming out are 45 and 52 it appears the market is going for more stable steering (higher trail). I think it depends on the head angle and what overall geo you want to go with. I am of the mind that steeper head angles should have more offset to add front center (another way of smoothing out the trail while keeping it responsive). Also reduces toe overlap potential. But lower offset is liked by many on the slack head angles for shortening FC since trail is out the door anyways with 65 deg HTA. Once again, it depends what you like, there’s no right answer.
For BB drop, i would go with the BB height you like on other bikes. My frame’s drop is 100 but could have been +/- 5mm, I just landed on a BB height I like with the current tire diameter.
Very interesting read. I have owned all manner of bikes including custom steel and Ti. I agree with essentially all sentiments. We all have our own priorities and resource levels. A well-designed carbon gravel bike can be had for about $2500, far less than the cost of custom steel frame alone. In my decision process, given a healthy but resoundingly finite household income, do I get the bespoke steel, or do I buy the Asia-sourced bike and take my family to Ireland? For me, for my primary bike, I usually go with custom, but stick to off-the-shelf for the bikes I use less. I have massive respect for these builders and the commitment to their craft. And the family can always go camping instead ;- )
I just want to offer a few brief thoughts. (1) I’m positively ecstatic about my Ponderosa, (2) I’d be willing pay more for a Ponderosa…or my next bike… to enjoy the personal touches Whit provided for me, (3) I think the core design of the Ponderosa, without some of the personal touches, would still be a wonderful bike for a large number of people…me included, and (4) I’d be thrilled to see Whit enjoy the rewards of factory support for a standard stock model Ponderosa…or other designs…PLUS…offering well-compensated custom and personal touches to those who want to pay for it. Oh, one more thing. I’d love for Whit to find a way back into building, because of the wonderful experience he provides for customers, but only if he make it rewarding for him.
Thank you for taking the time to lay out these arguments. I have many friends who question my judgement when I fail to consider “comparative economic advantages” when it comes to housecleaning, yard work, house repair, etc. God forbid I tell them how much my bikes cost, because they would only look at the number, and would never take the time to read something as well-thought out as this post.
The continuity of the process, the communication with the frame builder, is why I have multiple custom bikes in steel and titanium. Every time I ride them, I recall the builder of that frame and appreciate that I am rolling on movable art coupled with thoughtful design. Every time I ride them, the details of the bike – polished lugs or perfect Ti welds or the portage handle or the custom paint etc etc – put a smile on my face and the wind at my back. EVERY time I ride them, random strangers will give me a shout out at the beauty of what I am riding, and I feel lucky and blessed.
Ultimately my custom bicycles keep me connected to the community of human beings who find a calling in creating unique and beautiful things that (woohoo!) provide me immense joy. Priceless.
I can buy a bike made in Taiwan where the welder might be wearing slippers and listening to a bootlegged Black Flag cassette, or I could buy a bike made by Meriwether where I KNOW the welder is wearing slippers and listening to a bootlegged Black Flag cassette. If you don’t think those two bikes ride differently, you are out of your mind.
nice additions. big boy mill will make a huge difference. you can probably set up the mini-mill with a fork jig and mitre legs for unicrown forks.
ole henry sure makes a nice jig.
Thanks Scott! They are definitely sweet additions to the arsenal. And it’s funny you said that about the mini mill because that’s exactly what I was planning to try tonight! Since it only angles to 45, I’ll have to figure out an angled 45degree block to lay the fork legs on which to mitre. Hmm…so much fun figuring all this stuff out!
Great site – I just found it because i was searching for info on hanks access 65 as well. Interesting the angles are all done with protractor still – that’s one nice thing i’ve noticed on the anvils is all the measurements are built in but yeah worth the extra $ tough to say. Cheers and thanks for the info.
Thanks for the comment Tim! It’s harder than one would think just to find info on these fixtures.
I just wanted to clarify that the Hank 65 has angle measurements for the head tube angle, really nice ones too with large spacing between whole numbers to get it right on the mark, but just no marks for the seat tube angle. So you don’t NEED to use a protractor for the ST angle if you are good at cutting the top tube to the right length from the drawings, but it does help to set it up initially. The BB drop and chainstay length are all marked out too. I’ll go into detail on the jig’s rear triangle measurements in the next couple weeks when i cut and tack the rear triangle.
Thanks for the clarification on the HTA. Do you view the TT support as essential? Did you also spring for the fork accessory too? Thanks for sharing.
Great post again many thanks.I’m wondering if this is the jig for me!
The TT support is really nice, i recommend it. The springs are kinda funky to attach, but they do hold it in there if you’re tilting the jig in any way. I’ll probably replace them with a couple of toggle clamps eventually that bolt on to the support plate.
I liked the TT support because once I got close with the TT miter, i could quickly place it in there to see how much farther I had to go to get the right length. But other people may do it a different way. I put in the downtube first, then the ST, then used a protractor to measure the ST angle against the DT using the measurement from the BikeCAD. Once I got it as close as I could, I double checked the TT distance with a ruler. Then I made sure the ST was locked down well with the toggle clamp thingy i made and made a rough cut of the TT and micro-adjusted it in there afterwards using the TT support. It’s not a necessary fixture to have added, but it makes it easier.
I didn’t get the fork fixture because after talking to Hank it seemed like it wasn’t what I wanted. It attaches to the fixture between the BB and CS attachments, but you can’t have a frame in the fixture when wanting to make a fork. I like having a separate fork fixture to do forks, but I’m going to also try to make my wishbone seatstays with it (with the 135mm Anvil dummy axle instead of the stock axle).
I have been playing with spread sheets for a new custom bike. It is pretty complicated I just know I can feel the difference between the Fisher G1 on My Ferrous and the G2 on the Superfly. LIke the Ferrous better. A tenth of an inch or 2 difference in trail seem to make a pretty big difference to me.
nice!
phrootah is 3 weeks away. you better weld that damned frame soon.
yes-I.. keep me posted on the developments
Thanks for linking back to my store.
I like to use a scratch gauge (like the one in your last photo) to see if the head and seat tubes are perpendicular to the bottom bracket. You can adjust it to just barely scratch the seat tube at the bottom bracket, then sweep it across the seat tube near the seat cluster to see how far out it is. I find that a bit easier than using the V-notch on my alignment gauge. You can do the same thing with the head tube.
A scratch gauge is nice because when it is properly adjusted it makes a very easy to hear sound from just grazing the top of the tube. If you get the same sound anywhere along the tube then you are golden.
Nicely done!
booyah!
nicely done. beautiful forkus
But what coukd possibly go wrong?
🙂
Mrs meriwether
Where oh where can I get a segmented crown fork, as beautiful as this, in raw, for a size large peace 9er? Cheers!
Joe
Joe,
Thanks for the kind words!
I bet Bronto Bikes up in Oregon could make you one? Todd welds up some SWEET forks that look and just are much better than what I can do currently.
http://www.brontobikes.com/forks-bronto-mountain-bike.php
Cheers,
Whit
don’t go knocking my white shoes…
My old orange Ionic Johnny Rotten single speed with Chris Chance rigid fork has been sent to Africa with Mike’s Bikes program – Bikes for Africa. It’s either winning races or delivering chickens right now!
I’ve never seen Mrs. Meriwether on a bike. Yay!
I’m just learning how to TIG weld, so I don’t have an answer for you on the black coloration. I’d be interested in the solution though. I’ve heard that using a gas lens for the torch can do wonders. You get better coverage with the argon and can get the tungsten out of the cup a bit more for those acute angles. Thanks for posting all of your experiences, I’ve been reading all of them to prepare for frame #1 in a few months.
Hey Chris, check out this mtbr thread that i posted…it has some good recommendations!
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/black-side-tig-bead-738749.html#post8460692
Looks great! Congrats on #6. DId you have to do any mods to the Access65 for that large head tube?! Very nice. Your tig welding is looking great too.
Hey Tim, I put a new update on the Henry James Update blog for the head tube too. I don’t have a lathe so couldn’t make my own cones but found a great set on ebay.
And thanks for the kind words!
Firstly thanks again for sharing your experiences with the HJ jig. There is little info out there! I hoped you could share your learnings with locating the lower HT height (in relation to BB) on this fixture. I suppose it’s not marked off on the jig? I’m slowing working up the resources to build again and would like to get it ‘right’ in choosing a fixture. So far this one is in the front running due to low weight, easy access and reasonable cost.
I hope the newest update answers your questions on the HT height measurement, I forgot to mention that before! I still think this is the best jig for the price. I know people build their own but with the time it takes to do that (research, trial/error, parts and labor) i think this is a solid competitor if you were to quantify it (parts + pay yourself to build your own jig). The Anvil’s are just too much money for the hobbyist even though they definitely have a lot of features that I’d love to have!
mitre’s are looking a lot cleaner. practice is good. nice looking forkus!
oh yes thank you thank you for that update and taking the time to show it visually! I always wondered about those out outputs from my copy of bike cad. thanks for demystifying it. Again awesome building.
dood!
no chance you can just cut off the chain-stays, hand file the bb back down to smooth and go again?
unfortunately no. I ovalized the BB shell itself while bending back the chainstays…i can’t even fit a BB in it anymore! Wish I had just sawed them off in the first place and not tried to bend. Lesson learned!
Interesting commentary re: the over equipping ones self.
I ride my cargo bike – which is a 21 speed Yuba Mundo, btw – all over San Francisco. In fact, I think its the ideal bike for the city, because it’s easy to pick up a friend, or a bunch of veggies and still climb hills in the wind. I wouldn’t try it on any other style bike
I guess I need to expand my definition of a cargo bike. I was classifying the Yuba Mundo in a different catagory with the Xtracycle type rigs. I can see how the Yuba would be great for SF since your weight is behind you and not in front of you like the ones in that video i linked and found here. I just can’t imagine the Long John Cargo Bike in San Francisco! I grew up near there and just think i’d go backwards with any cargo up front! But I am completely open to being wrong.
according to a memo just released from Dave Hunter, “Bikes will be allowed on ALL terrain at Eldora Mountain Resort.” I think they meant the newly allowed lift serviced snowbikes for the alpine terrain, but….all terrain is all terrain.
Bring up your bike to the Nordic Center! Friday would probably be the best day–just me and Peter M. working.
-Dawn (I used to live behind you in the big horse place on Lazy Z)
Seriously!? That is amazing! Once I get my fatbike built up, i’m going to have to go on up!
The MTBR haters might be hating on the torsional characteristics… but I think it’s boss!
haha! thanks man, I appreciate that. I’m thinking it’s not the frame after all and like you say, it’s the huge tire doing most of the moving. But i am going to get the dial indicator out and do some serious nerding out tonight…more later on that.
Yeah! Check out the guy on the biggest wheels feeling his superiority having a smoke!
very nice bike! 34lbs sounds pretty reasonable considering the wheels..
my first build was a breakapart cargo bike; my next prototype’s rear will be compatible with big rims too.
Thanks Bruce!
I don’t obsess about weight, but I do consider it since I does affect the riding experience.
Yeah, 34lbs isn’t too bad considering also that it has a steel-railed Brooks saddle and a pretty heavy fork (straight gauge 4130 with sleeved blades), as well as the tank-like Surly tubes. Changing those three things (and weighing it without the pedals like most seem to do when reporting bike weight), it’d be less than 30lbs.
cool as!
Um, I think I’ll try fixing the gate first!
looked like some snow fun on the vid!!!! the drop in section around minute 8 looked dicey!!! frame is sweet!!
TK
A bit of downtube “flair”?
Nice!
already looks pro… stoked
Love the Monster Cross! In the market for a geared Monster at the moment but don’t have a lot of coin, what do your frames cost.
Hey Mark! Thanks for the comment on the bike! It’s a really fun bike to ride. I can’t wait to get it on some trails once the snow melts!
I’m not selling bikes…yet, I’m just making them for friends and myself for around another year. By this time next year I hope to be taking orders…stay tuned if you’re interested!
I don’t know what the cost of a frame & fork will be but I’m guessing it’ll be comparable to other small steel tig-welded framebuilders…?
I just hit the ” like ” button…. word
looking stout!!!!! great work
Hi,
Do you still find yourself manually pulsing on the acute angles? I’m in the midst of TIG practice before I attempt my first TIGed frame. My welds are coming a long way but I’m getting some too hot welds in the acute angle between the DT and HT. I’ll end up with some undercut on either the DT or the HT.
When you add some more amps do you do it as you are adding filler or when pushing the puddle?
Thanks,
Jason
Jason,
I do tend to manually pulse in tight and hard-to-see locations — in the acute angles, where there is thin tubing, or where the miters are less than perfect (it seems to help get a good puddle going fast but also cool the metal and not burn through). I do it less than I used to but it does definitely help in certain locations.
Is it possible that you’re moving too slow even if you have enough amps going into the tight spots? The undercutting may be a result of that or not adding enough filler? The acute angles definitely take a bit of a ramp-up on the pedal. I’ve found it helps to ‘carry’ a good puddle going into the tight spot as it’s much easier to keep it going that way, but that depends on your weld sequence as that can’t always be done if you want to go around the tube all in the same direction. The hardest thing to get used to, and I’m still getting used to it and learning each weld bead, is how to move the torch quickly on each pass (how to get a puddle going quickly and then move the puddle quickly while adding filler). It helps with shaky hand syndrome, overheating the tubes generally, and burning through.
When i manually pulse, I add the filler when the puddle is at the biggest size, so there’s a bit of a rhythm to it. As you ramp up the pedal and get the puddle bigger and moving forward, you dab the filler rod just before you lay off the pedal to cool before ramping up the amps again with the pedal and moving, dabbing, cooling, and so forth. I seem to move the puddle forward as i’m ramping up the amps. Unlike most of the automated pulser settings i’ve heard of people using (2hz. is the norm it seems), I am moving pretty slow compared to that so I can effectively add filler and see what’s going on.
Good luck with the first TIG’d frame! I was really nervous before mine. I think if you realize beforehand it ain’t gonna be perfect and then weld it as best you can and do what you know how to do, it’ll be fine..and fun! I still get nervous before I weld a frame or fork. There’s really no way to practice all the angles you’re going to encounter on the frame I found, so the only way to get better is just by doing more frames. (Manually pulsing with 1/16″ filler rod also helps a ton when you need to fill in a burn-through hole, which happened to me at least 3 times on my 1st frame.)
newer mind the brazing – the tiggin’s looking very good too…
thanks man! Though I still feel like i suck. I dig the Mountain Mule logo, when’s the website going live?
Thanks for taking so much time to detail each step of your learning process. I’m about 6-months into frame building and have read your blogs going back to your start. Your blogs have been as helpful to me as anything else I’ve read on the web (which is a lot). You the man!!!
BRO, LOOKS EPIC…. LOOKING FORWARD TO BUILDING HER UP AND LETTING HER RIP… TK
SICK, Let’s go tour.
HOPE THE MOVE IS GOING SMOOTH!!!!! LOTS O TRAIL TO EXPLORE
TK
I very much enjoy reading your posts and learning from them. Glad to see that you’re near to getting going again with the new fixtures. My son and I are just now about ready to be building our first frame so I figure that we’re about 2+ years behind you in frame building. We’ve invested in the Anvil equipment and feel very confident that we can design a good frame and get the tubes to be near “water tight” before welding. The biggest hurdle for us would seem to be the Tig welding. I’d be real curious to hear what Don told you in that 5 minutes about the use of the pulser in welding a frame. In fact if you could add that to your own welding experience that would make for a great “next” blog installment. Thanks for all the great info in your previous entries.
So, now that the secret is out…what is Don doing to lay those amazing beads?
No way man! You need to buy a frame fixture to get that beta!!
I’ll try to write something up this week. It’s really not that much info, but it was just a few little tidbits that made the lightbulb in my head go off. It was really nothing new for most people probably, but for me it will help me get a better smoother stack of dimes if I practice a bunch. There’s something to be said for getting advice in person after trying it for awhile by yourself.
Good stuff! My take away is to “lay wire” while pulsing and keep pressure on the filler rod in the puddle while finger feeding (not dabbing in and out of the puddle). I use this method on straight/flat-ish joints (disc tabs) and pulse the foot pedal since I don’t have a pulse option on my old machine. I typically work every other joint just like your used to; constant amps and dab, dab, dab…
Rolling the filler between the fingers is something I’ve never tried, usually just feed the rod in between my index and middle finger. Will have to try that one.
You mention the filler rod balling outside of the puddle when trying to lay wire. I often encounter this issue with dabbing at constant amps when things get too hot, or the puddle hasn’t formed well enough to accept the filler. Whenever I can, I’ll lay wire as a way to avoid the problem since the filler is already in the puddle with pressure applied.
Thanks Andy! I appreciate you adding your comments and experience to the mix. I hope to add to this post with the comments I’m getting from other builders too in the comments over the next few days. I’ve already received more site visits for this post than any other individual post (101 en-counting) so I know this is a topic many are interested in learning about! The Framebuilders Google Group has some comments that I’ll post up soon just in case people that read me aren’t on that list.
I do think laying the wire in there will do the trick and may help bridge the learning gap for now of not being able to roll the rod in the filler-rod hand while maintaining all the other things going on with your foot, torch hand, brain, work, etc. I’ll have to give that a try. I also agree with your thoughts on why the wire balls up sometimes. I know that I get over-excited to add filler when I’ve had too much espresso! It’s like my left-hand with the filler wire has its own mind and can’t stop punching the puddle before it’s up to temp!
I found your blog to be very helpful and informative. I am new to frame building as a retirement hobby and decided to go the TIG way as my primary method. I was taught with pulsed welders and have been getting pretty good at it but was taught to use the dabbing method. I can see how the constant feed would be better. Can’t wait to give it a try. Being new, I do not have to worry about changing my old ways.
Thanks for the great ariticle. Anymore tips for the newbie would be appreciated.
Regards
Thanks Carl, I’m happy to help the novice since I was in your shoes not too long ago! I hope my blog can be a resource for the beginning framebuilder. I still am no expert, please realize, and I feel like I’ll be learning for many years to come.
I’ve copied/pasted some comments below that are from the Framebuilders Google Group that resulted from another builder posting a link to this post on my blog:
Brent Steelman:
The best welder I have ever known does not use a pulser. But many use a
pulser to achieve excellent results. What makes a skilled welder is
patience, practice, common sense, good hand-eye-foot coordination, and
an ability to focus on the moment.
—————————————————————————
John of User Bikes:
I think some people get caught up in the ‘stack of dimes’ look, thinking that is what makes a good weld.
If one is hung up on stacking beads, one needs to be sure there is proper penetration in the joint, not stacking beads for the sake of the look as obviously you begin to approach a cold weld.
I learned gas welding in aviation in the early 1990s. I can promise you there is no stacking of dimes going on there….especially with the torch movement. I weld without pulsing, and certainly don’t have that stack when working with steel.
I do agree pulsing can help mitigate some warping and feel pulsing is the smarter way to work (taking advantage of technology advances in welding), just hard to change the past twenty years!
While stacking is pretty, it’s not necessary. For whatever reason, there has been borne the assumption one needs that look…..
And please correct me if working, but the term really is an aluminum thing.
—————————————————-
Dave Bohm:
I agree with John here.
The stack of dimes look does not necessarily in and of itself indicate the quality of a weld. Although the opposite is true as well. A poor looking weld is usually a poor weld. Welding inspectors can fail a weld just on looks alone but we (bicycle makers) kind of take the even puddle thing a bit too far at times.
The idea of a pulser has been discussed here and is generally right but if you are pulsing your work at a very low pulse rate (1-5 hertz per second) then you really are not taking advantage of what the pulser has to offer. Many great welders can do this very same thing with their foot/hand. The real benefit is in the higher pulse rates. Ever wonder why a machine even comes with 300, 500 or 1000 hz? No they are not doing it just to compete with one another. The higher pulse rates reduce distortion, agitate the weld puddle to reduce porosity and can affect the penetration of the filler material without increasing heat input. Really these things should be run way up there above 50 Hz. That means you should not use the pulser like a metronome to help with pace. That still has to come with all the standard hand/eye/foot skills that TIG welding entails.
Appreciate the additional information. I am working with 1mm 4130 chromoly tubing. With your settings, what gas flow rate do you find best. Do you recommend 1/16th or 3/32 filler rod and tungsten? I have been playing with both and want to know if there is a better choice. Thank you.
I use 15-20cfh, and 3/32 rod ground to a fine point. I tried 1/16th shortly but had some trouble getting used to it. I heard that 3/32 is better but I can’t remember who said that and why. I think it depends on the amps you weld at — higher range with 3/32.
Also remember to keep everything really clean and the room draft free.
That 4130 comes pretty dirty so use emery cloth or a wire wheel on the outside to clean and if you have one a flap-wheel or flexible cylinder hone to get the inside. Then wash well, it should look shiny like bike tubing when done.
There are lots of variables but one I found to be neglecting at the start was the careful ramp up and amp control with the foot pedal. As soon as the puddle forms you stop upping the amps, hold steady, and push the puddle while adding filler in a smooth steady fashion. When your pass is done slowly back off the amps and hold the torch still so to not disturb the argon flow while letting the post-purge run its time (10 sec is plenty, some use less, a few use more).
Sorry if that’s stuff you already knew, just thought I’d cover it here to be sure!
Where are you getting your tubing bends? Or are you doing that yourself?
That was my first attempt using the Harbor Freight tubing roller I got awhile back but have yet to master. I rolled some 7/8″ 4130 x 0.035 in the stock 1″ dies and so that’s why there’s some definite flattening of the wishbone crown piece. I think it turned out looking kinda cool though so that’s why I kept it. The bend you can get on the roller is not sharp enough for a regular bike’s wishbone stay, so another method/bender would need to be used in that case.
Craig,
I only have used the Harris wire from Henry James. For the chainstay bridge, or where more of a fillet is needed, I use the 50N which appears the same as BAg-24. (50% Ag, 1% nickel), but for the braze-ons i just use the 56% Ag wire.
Have the ‘cross bike at work today. You should swing by and get it all decaled up.
Lovely welds indeed,unfortunately even after 18 months of practice I can only aspire to welds of that quality. Many thanks for sharing your work with the world via this blog, it been great to follow the developments and is great motivation for us wannabe builders.
thanks for the kind words. There have been times where i almost gave up thinking I couldn’t get to where I am now. My biggest helps were simply to focus on getting super-tight miters, being able to fully SEE close up the joint you’re welding even if that means wearing reading glasses under the hood, and practicing a ton.
king cage looks sweet….. must have for next tour!!!
You run a nice bead, amigo. I do TIG on motorcycle frames, but have always been interested in bicycle structure and filleting… Do you do any work with that?
thanks man! I appreciate the compliment.
Are you asking if I fillet braze with brass on bike frames? I do fillet braze the rear dropouts sometimes, but not any of the main tubes yet. I have done it but haven’t spent tons of time practicing. Not sure if I answered your question…
You did… I just think it’s a cool metalworking technique. If you get the chance throw up some pics! Thanks
Beautiful work. I’m in complete awe! Can’t wait to race it.
That is one rad fork!
What kind of silver solder are you using on your frame? Bag-24?
Awesome! Can’t wait to see this put together.
Whit, have fun exploring. I used to ride near there when I was at Davis going to school. We’d head up on weekends and do some great rides. We had one ride in particular that started down at the bottom of 193 (old foresthill) at 49. We’d ride up river next to the river, climb up, and then traverse back down river high above it. This was back in the late 80’s/early 90’s before bikes were an “issue.” I am pretty sure that trail became closed to bikes but who knows, perhaps it is open again in our enlightened age. My brother was lived in Grass Valley for 20+ years….so many great trails in that area. Enjoy.
Thanks Dave! I’m looking forward to truly getting lost again and not knowing which way is west. Sounds like you were somewhere in the Auburn Rec Area so many years ago? They have a ‘downhill’ trail there that goes down from FH road to the river called Confluence that maybe is it? http://www.fatrac.org/node/639
Shoot me a line when you’re out visiting your brother in GV. It’d be awesome to ride together!
Cheers,
Whit
wow… looks great Whit… that shop and property are sweet!!! so many epics to be had… you may be riding more than building?!?! look up Tim Pratt and Heidi Askew!!! both GV locals!!!
cant wait to visit…..
We rented a cabin in dollar point 1/17-21…… lets make some turns!
TK
what an epic space!!!!
Looks like he has orange and blue. What other colors could you possibly need?
i know! And the best part is that it’s “Safety Orange”…!
The singlespeed cross bike is stopping by for a powdercoating safety break…
Sweet. Maybe I can plan a trip out to have both frames safety’d…Been riding the gold…fork…lately. Forgot how much fun the ss can be.
Hey Whit, Congrats on the new shop! I can understand why Whit sightings may become rare.
Remember that your weight distribution changes a LOT when you stand up. Did you do the with-White weighing sitting or standing? In my mind sitting is kinda useless because you don’t usually sit when you’re doing bike-handling type riding. For steep/techy climbing it can matter, of course, but most of the time when you’re in the saddle weight distribution doesn’t matter all that much.
-Walt
Oh, one more thing – for fun you can add/remove spacers from under the stem. Makes a considerable difference if you move your hands up or down a bit.
So true. I thought about the spacers but that was too much work. Even increasing the bar angle from horizontal (~20deg) for these bent swoopy bars means a little more weight on the front wheel. Better on the wrists, worse on my back. It’s just one tradeoff after another!
I sit a lot on my geared bikes now that I’m older. I stand on the singlespeed but that’s a given. What I don’t like about more of a “XC” or forward weight distribution is the pressure it puts on my wrists, hands, neck, and back. Slackening the STA, using more setback, and using a shorter stem all have helped me a ton with back and wrist pain & numbness. But climbing on steep stuff with that setup isn’t very cool.
I don’t know, man, you seemed to like going fast when you used to drop my ass in Ned.
Hah…I don’t know, the last ride we did you dropped me! Maybe I’ve changed in my old age. But also, many of my opinions are schizophrenic like Myself and that other guy Me.
I do LOVE going fast! I also love to cruise it without a care in the world!
quality post, brother.
Meriwether’s slow is most peoples fast…
Just like uphill access, ski areas are going to need to address the rise of fat bikes. Both are similar to snowboards, 20-years ago.
Agreed.
Looks like Arapahoe Basin is allowing uphill access with dogs even! Just need a pass. Saw something in the latest Mountain Magazine…
Way cool!
Around here (UT) the fatbike folks are almost universally hated by the XC skiers, and as far as I can tell, for good reason – unless things are rock hard, they leave awful divots all over the place (especially if they wander onto the classic track). I like the idea of riding when the conditions are right – but people seem to feel like if they got all geared up, they deserve to ride, and screw everyone else (that’s not unique to fatbikers, of course). I think your neck of the woods is the exception – now way are you causing problems for the slednecks or hunters.
That’s sad to hear that there are already problems out on the trails as I bet many of those XC skiers also ride bikes and vice versa.
Opening Nordic trails after dark to fatbikes is one way to keep people happy so the groomers come by and wipe any trace of tire tracks away before the morning. But the Nordic areas are the worser places to ride anyways IMO. Too many people and wide trails. Snowshoe trails are awesome!
Really I wonder if the fatbikers just need to find the sledneck trails in their area – if they exist and most areas will have them, or take it upon themselves to create their own (on the summer trails on public lands). Work with the Forest Service to designate some travel routes before it’s too late!
For me here, it’s really weird. I’m definitely in the exception. I can ride 40 miles on sled or groomed trails to Donner Pass, or take many side roads that go who knows where? There are hundreds of people riding road and mtbs just down the road in Auburn, and as far as I’ve seen not one owns a fatbike (yet…).
Rad shout outs! Are you going to try for Ritchey-like output? 10 frames a day every day for 10 years?
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On Jan 15, 2013, at 11:34 AM, Meriwether Cycles wrote:
WordPress.com Meriwether Cycles posted: “I wanted to link to this article published at Old Glory MTB in which I have a couple of quotes. The writer added “For my customers…” to my quote even though I’ve solely built frames and forks for me and my friends up to this point. In the article, I”
There is no snow here and I have been riding Sourdough on my regular bike a few times a week since New Years, you aren’t missing anything, yet (except the SW rides)
I can’t believe it still hasn’t snowed more there. WTF?! Sourdough and Camp D are pretty sweet rides, hard to find singletrack for snowbikes here (so far…).
I’m definitely missing the S*W rides and all you mopes!
Whit, I came across your blog recently. Great stuff. Your current build here is looking good and your new shop setup looks nice and spacious. Build on!
Thanks for stopping by Alistair!
Interesting stuff. I’ve heard a couple or three people talk about their forks un-raking due to disc brake forces. This was on one some bike/framebuilding related online forum or other so take that for what it’s worth.
I’ve only seen the un-raking phenomenon once in person, on the commute bike of a local, very experienced builder. He had built the fork with light duty blades (I can’t recall the dimensions now) and once he rebuilt the fork with stouter blades the problem went away I’m pretty sure.
People do seem to have good luck using the Willit’s brace, which makes sense. It does bug me though that in using one, you end up with blades that have different flexure characteristics. In practice, that probably doesn’t mean a hill of beans to the rider, but from an engineering perspective it seems somehow inelegant. Never ridden one though so I really should try one first, before casting judgement.
People who think that forces below the limit of elastic deformation of a steel fork blade will deform it over time are either crazy or have a very different definition of “time” (heat death of the universe?) than I do.
Now, if you go past that and into inelastic deformation, you will of course bend things. But generally that type of event results in some form of pretty obvious failure (ie, buckled tube, cracks, etc).
Builders who are still afraid of/unable to cope with disc brakes are just freaking out because they’re starting to show up on road and CX bikes so they can’t keep their heads in the sand much longer even if they never build mountain bikes.
Walt, I’ve definitely seen a fork un-rake, yield, however you want to put it. It was a subtle thing, not obvious at first, until the fork was measured. Not a catastrophic thing at all, but it did affect the tracking of the bike.
If you get into the mechanics of how metal yields ie. slip planes, dislocations etc. (and I’m no expert in this) you can argue that the force required to un-rake the blade is less than the force that it took to rake it. It’s going to depend on a bunch of variables, but it can happen. It’s not just a hypothetical scenario, in my opinion, although not necessarily common.
I have built ~1000 disc brake forks of all types, as well as seen lots more that came in to be looked at after a crash or garage/roofrack incident. I have NEVER seen a fork “unrake” without some kind of unusual event/crash. I say BS unless there’s a precipitating event of some kind.
Walt, that’s a ton of experience, and I give it a lot of weight. I’m always interested in learning more from those with more experience than me.
I can’t ignore what I’ve seen though, so I’m going to have to disagree with your conclusion.
Just to be sure we’re on the same page, are you talking about road bike style forks raked with a curve, or straight bladed MTB style forks?
I do take issue with your use of the term BS, as it implies that I’ve got some ulterior motive in all this. I don’t. I think disc brakes make a lot of sense in many applications. I’d like to find a way to incorporate them safely on curved road bike style forks ie. light gauge blades that give the ride characteristics that I’m looking for.
Thanks for the great comments you guys!
I will have to admit my ignorance in flexure characteristics and deformation limits, but intuitively I tend to agree with Walt that unless there’s a force that is very close to or higher than the force one puts into bending the blades…then I don’t understand how a fork blade can physically un-rake from the normal braking force of disc brakes. However, it appears that it has happened at least a few times from reputable builders and that completely confuses me. Maybe it’s as simple as they used what they normally use for road blades and they were too thin-walled and narrow profile? Or maybe they didn’t use a Willit’s style caliper mount to help support the raked leg? Or maybe they stomped on the brakes enough that the force was close enough to the force it took to bend the blades in the first place and as a result they moved back a bit. The last one especially would honestly confuse me. I know that when I try to cold-set frames and forks, I’m pretty surprised at how difficult it is to get them to move even 1mm. I still cold-set forks (not frames though) since none of my forks have come out perfectly straight but I think that’s pretty common. So, in knowing the brute force I put into cold-setting a fork…and that happening on the bike while riding and just using the brakes…well crap…i’d be in the ditch from me going over the bars from braking that hard! But I must be underestimating the force a disc brake places on the one fork leg.
I never thought about the different ride quality possibility from one side having such an extensive brake mount like the Willit’s. I’m not sure I’d realize the difference myself but it’d be worth trying with two identical forks – one is disc and one is canti. If such a difference in flexure occurs, there would be possible twisting in the blades and some self-steering while braking I’d imagine? I don’t notice any of that with the two forks I have ridden but it may be subtle.
The new fork I’m now riding has thicker blades and it’s noticeably stiffer in ride and while braking than the last fork (the one I’m writing about in this blog). With the Pacenti crown and True Temper blades, I’m pretty confident in using them with discs. I’m sure there are many other builders doing it out there and it’d be cool to see the data compiled on failure rates and what tubes and caliper mounts were used in each circumstance. Or if someone wanted to dork out and do some computer modeling that’d be cool as well!
Yes to your first two suppositions, in the cases that I’ve seen anyway. Light gauge blades were used with no reinforcing torque arm. At the time those forks were built, the Willits style adapter wasn’t available. To my knowledge anyway.
Regarding forces due to cold setting I agree. The forces required to cold set a fork or frame always shock me too, however…
have you ever flipped a fork around in your bender to take some rake off it? It’s surprisingly easy and that, in my opinion, is what’s happening with a disc brake.
The center of the disc brake pad acts as an instantaneous center of rotation, like a fulcrum, and the friction between the road and the tire is pulling backwards and down, trying to eject the axle from the dropouts. That force is what can un-bend the blade, in my opinion. All the action is happening between the center of the DO’s and the caliper mount. That’s why I think it can be hard to relate to, since it’s not how a fork blade would be stressed when you are cold setting a fork.
As for the difference in ride quality between blades, I think that would only really come into play on really light road gauge blades, where you’d be hoping to get some flex in the lower, curved part of the blade.
The addition of a relatively massive reinforcing member there would make a difference.
I think for most fork blades though, the extra stiffness added by a Willits style brace would be lost in the noise of the flexing of all the other things involved. It would definitely be there, by definition it would have to be, but whether the rider could feel the difference? I rather doubt it.
Anyway, not sure if this helps, but it’s interesting to think about this stuff plus, I’d like to know more about it myself.
Well, every time I hear about this, it’s “well, this one time, this friend of mine” kind of stuff. I don’t see pictures and well documented first-person information. I tend to distrust a lot of the internet-based chatter about this topic from people who mostly don’t build disc brake bikes and/or dislike the whole idea.
In my direct experience building both curved blade and straightblade disc forks, you get 2 kinds of failures:
-Type 1 is when the disc tab breaks the fork blade at the highest attachment point. This spot is a huge stress riser so if you use a Willits type tab or just weld on an extension to a normal tab (or do a postmount setup) you can mitigate the risk and spread that load/reduce leverage.
-Type 2 is when you hit something hard or land flat of a big drop or whatever. Forks (of all types) break where the blades meet the crown in this scenario. In some cases they buckle, in some cases (larger diameter blades) they crack.
You NEVER get failures or problems in the middle of the fork blade, nor have I ever seen a smooth curve introduced/removed (ie deraking) by braking forces or any other scenario. If point loads made fork blades bend smoothly, we wouldn’t need mandrels to bend them over, right? You could just clamp the tip and pull on the other end.
-Walt
“You NEVER get failures or problems in the middle of the fork blade, nor have I ever seen a smooth curve introduced/removed (ie deraking) by braking forces or any other scenario. If point loads made fork blades bend smoothly, we wouldn’t need mandrels to bend them over, right? You could just clamp the tip and pull on the other end.
-Walt”
(re-posting this, the first one got away from me before I was finished, sorry about that).
The phenomenon I’m referencing is not happening in the middle of the blade. It’s happening towards the end of it, in the curved section.
If you need to take some rake off a curved fork blade you can do so by flipping it around in the bender, locking the blade tip in place, and pulling on the steerer. In this scenario the blade is only being subjected to point loads, since it is touching the mandrel tangentially (curve against curve). The blade un-rakes by increasing it’s radius of curvature, not by introducing a kink in the blade.
Obviously, if you take it far enough you’ll eventually subject it to a point load that buckles the blade at some point, but for taking a few mm of rake off the blade it works fine and the blade remains uniformly curved.
If you like, I can put you in touch with a very experienced local builder here in Seattle who can relate to you directly his experience with disc brakes un-raking forks.
Alistair.
Let’s just say we agree to disagree, and that if you do a good job building your fork, it won’t break OR derake. 🙂
-W
Agreed!
If the forces acting are understood, and enough material is put in the right places to deal with those forces, all will be good.
Alistair.
Thank you very much for sharing your findings and experience.
It´s great and refreshing to see the “new wave” and the “new ways”.
Really inspiring.
Greetings from Madrid.
‘about-to-give-up-framebuilding-frustration’ moments
I know those moments and what it can do to you mentally. Nothing sucks like finally having time to chip away at a frame and have everything else working against you. I got a bad tank of argon from the LWS last summer and I had to spend hours making sure it wasn’t on my end and convincing them that it was their issue.
Even though the gas was the immediate culprit, I still get some wandering and overall inconsistencies in the arc.This post reminds me to take some time and check all of my fittings again.
Looking good!
You mentioned having trouble measuring your tube rolling radius while on the bender. I’ve of one of these radius finders from Trick Tools. http://www.trick-tools.com/Radius_Contour_Gauges_9
Pricey, but the small one (2.5 to 30 inch radius) covers anything I do.
Otherwise, contour guages, with the stack of thin wire rods or plastis sliders are good for checking against drawings. Smaller cheaper ones for tiling etc from hardware shops.
Hope that helps…loving the blogs.
Thanks Dan! Great tip! I had no clue those existed. I officially need one.
Maybe one way to get a system going would be to roll a sacrificial tube and count revolutions of the wrench/driver bolt (Walt’s idea there) and removing the tube every 1/4 turn to get a radius datapoint, then enter it into a spreadsheet to get a regression (of questionable accuracy).
But then you could work forward from BikeCAD to the bender instead of the other way around. the way I do it now is to bend to a good enough bend for what I’m looking for, then measure the new effective seat tube angle on paper/calc the new seat tube angle to set the fixture, and THEN enter into BikeCAD and futz around to adjust the geometry accordingly for miter lengths (get the right setback, etc.).
I don’t use Bike Cad (still on full scale paper) so can’t help much on that side, but I think if you’re looking for a curved lower section followed by a straight top section, you’ll need some different tooling.
Fred at http://wolfhoundcycles.com/site/ has a set of hardwood large radius formers, maybe 6 different radii, to gently curve his tubes to the required radius. These would be a tighter radius that the finished tube radius because of the considerable spring back of the tubing. I mostly use 6061 alu tubing, and find that with 1″ x 0.058 a 275mm radius former will spring out to approx a 325mm finished tube. I think Fred only uses this with PG 4130, rather than the real thin stuff.
I have used built up wheels as gentle radius formers. Clamp it horizontally so it can’t rotate, clamp a section of tube to the rim with a g-clamp (might need reinforcing plug inside). Fit a tommy bar in the end and bend the tube around the rim in a single smooth move.
Then there’s the tight little return bend to get the top section closer to vertical again. This would need a guide/ former bender (JMR, Baileigh, Mittler etc).
Using a sacrificial tube to generate a guideline is ok, but I find that different batches of tubing (even top quality seamless stuff with mill certificates etc) often react very differently, so it will always be just a guideline.
All the best,
Those are great words of advice, thanks again!
I saw Fred’s bender rack in a picture on his blog, very custom and nice! I’d not know yet what radii to make but it’d likely turn out better than what I’m doing now! And thanks for the springback info and experience, something I hadn’t considered.
For my method I leave the dent that the roller makes at the stopping point so that there’s 4-5″ total (including collar) of straight tube above the bend. It’s not as pretty as not having the dent but I doubt it does anything structurally at that point in the seat tube. I may fill it with brass and smooth if it’s a really rough rider’s bike.
I just can’t imagine how hard it’d be to bend a 35mm tube, especially a heat-treated 1/7/1 butted tube, on a wood mandrel even with a bar extension! Straight 4130 would be easier than bike tubing but…he must be strong or I must be naive.
I would like to know how other builders do this in addition to Fred since lots do but few share their methods. Seems like most use heavier straight gauge instead of butted, and have custom benders. JD and the other large radius tube benders don’t seem to do it without failure as far as I’ve seen. Using a wheel is a cool idea, to match that radius and you already have the “bender”. Ever collapsed the rim when bending?
Anyways, all good notes to think about. May be time to make some hardwood mandrels and test them out.
Cheers,
Whit
If this was something you *had* to have squared up, you can try something like putting a Dremel with a carbide burr into the mill vice. You don’t have to be move the stock fast because you’ve got plenty of cutting speed behind the tool bit.
The downside, and it’s significant, is that you’re either throwing lots of metal filings or, if using an abrasive wheel, grit, all over the place. I have a stash of canvas scraps to cover the machine beds. You also want to wear gloves because the carbide filings in your hands are the worse things ever.
I had never thought of that, but makes total sense if you can securely hold the Dremel mostly square and in place without hurting it…hmm….i like it! Since I took those pics last weekend I’ve got my main tube mitering fixture on that mill i may have trouble fitting it all on that table. Worth a try though and definitely cover it all up beforehand. I just need a little bit off to square it so shouldn’t be that much grit.
Well, I think 17 frames is a pretty good number…
In any case, thanks for writing thoroughly about your process, it’s been a nice read so far.
Happy anniversary!
Dude, congrats! Hang onto that first frame even if you stop riding it, you’ll love having it in a decade or two.
The infamous “fork that unraked” on the internet was mine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/drwelby/5632096652/.
Note the short disk mount.
Marc,
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this. Kinda completes this thread knowing that it’s not a myth and actually has happened. Maybe the Willits style mount is keeping my forks from un-raking? I’m riding it a lot on dirt roads, 4×4 and other, with singletrack thrown in but not on super technical over the back of the seat rocky trails. I’ll be sure to update if something tragic happens…
Yeah, you just need a little more thickness front-to-back than just the road fork blade. The FB4s work fine, but they have a short taper so they’re already somewhere around 17mm at the top of the mount.
I’ve been wanting to make an aluminum disc mount that bolts to the fork leg near the dropout and then higher up maybe 1/3 of the way up the leg, and have it either slotted or on a small linkage so the for can flex independent of the brake mount.
A disc mount with pivots to allow flex..that’s a cool idea! I wonder if Paragon would take up something like this. I would like to ride both types side by side to see how much I notice the different in flex.
Discs on raked blades isn’t going away IMO. For example, I just got a blog hit from a search phrase “suspension corrected 29er fork monster crossed lug“. Having a better solution would be great! What about Post-Mount…? Or an ISO that is attached to the dropout (like Alex Wetmore’s custom mount:http://alexwetmore.org/?p=1173) but then only to a spot above the bend in the blade? That way between the two points the leg is allowed to flex?
I was going to try something waterjet cut that would ride on a brass bushing at the bottom. At the top the brass bushing could ride in a slot, or for a short link I was thinking you might be able to make something work using a half link of chain to bridge the gap.
Or we just need somebody to make a blade that’s 28 x 20 at the top and 14 x 10 at the bottom. Wouldn’t be a ton of fun to rake but I think it would look good – a little bit aero and retro at the same time. You actually might be able to get those dimensions out of a current road fork blade – might have to experiment a bit and run some numbers.
File to fit is all I ever knew for my first 100 or so frames – if you do it enough, it’s actually faster than doing it on the machine, IMO. Of course, I use a mill anyway because I’m lazy… bike looks rad!
It may have been a pig to make, but it’s very, very pretty (-: Congrats.
Thank you Cass. It makes it worth it hearing the really positive comments.
There’s something almost universal about curvy tubed bikes that cyclists and even non-cyclists connect with.
I have a feeling I’m not getting away so easy and these types of frames will be requested a lot once I hang out the shingle.
my favorite is the “private you will be shot” sign…can we get one just like it please? pretty please? 🙂
Dude!
You need a 321 adapter!
Check it out.
Do you need two tensioners?
It’s been a long time since I wrote this blog but I did have 1 of those Surly tensioners on each dropout so it was evenly spaced on each side. Is that what you were asking?
I’m no expert (on frame #15) and you might never do this, but I’ll throw the following out so you don’t ever make a mistake I made. I’ve been using the Mr. Rodriguez bender for all my stays. Make sure you think about the disc brake rotors, if applicable. it’s tempting to bend the stays in tight and forget to leave room…did it once…ughh.
Great point Tom, I had been warned of that luckily before attempting my first stays. I can definitely see how it would happen. I drew out the rotor and cassette on the life-size drawing to help when ‘fitting up’ the stays on the drawing before going further (slotting, mitering). You can probably see that I didn’t make these super S-bendy which I did to be safe. I’d like to get the tops to come in closer together next time and wrap around the tire better while still leaving enough room for the rotor and cassette.
I’m so glad that you’re feeling better and riding again!!!!!
Nice welds and tight miters!
What chainstays you are using on this one, Dedacciai 29er chainstays?
Good eye! Yes, they are the newer Deda’s. I am using them because I have a few sets but i think these are less desirable than I had previously thought. The bend is just too big IMO (26 deg) for most frames. You can see how far they go inboard on the BB…that’s just so I can clear the outside of the chainstay with the chainrings. But the benefits of these stays is that they’re really beefy and stiff even though they’re so ovalized, and being that far inboard on the BB doesn’t distort the threads while welding and is easier on the BB tap. I’m going to stick with normal S-bend stays (~15 deg) that are easily crimped to clear the tire and chainring/s for shorter stay bikes. Maybe the new Deda’s are great for 16″ chainstay 29ers though, I don’t know yet.
Thanks for the info!
I too think that the bend is too big in some cases, but they’re beefy.
I have them for my coming build and the modeling I have done suggest that I need to place them like you have done here. Maybe I should go for shorter than planned 430mm stays, not sure yet though. The chainring clearance is another thing to think about.
that’s a sweet looking frame!
The S Fatboy is built around their Carve/Crave 29 geometry. The product designers would not confirm or deny that 29+ would fit…
So does that mean they’re coming out with a 29+ bike or tire…? Hmm.
No, but a lot of people were inquiring if the 29+ would work in the frame/fork. A second wheelset would make for a year-round bike.
Whit…I stumbled across your site through MTBR and instantly recognized Devil’s Thumb in the photo at the top. I too thought I was one of the only mountain bikers in Foresthill (Todd Valley) besides Sean, but I have yet to ride with him since our fitness levels are on different ends of the spectrum. After reading some more of your posts, I believe I know the property you purchased as I too checked it out before making my purchase two years ago…very nice. That shop is amazing! Maybe we’ll cross paths out there as I’m starting to increase my mileage and have been exploring the OHV trails out of China Hole (loop 5 and 6 with the Western States mixed in). Come to think of it, I think I saw you with a fat bike on the back or top…can’t remember…of an Outback as you were heading up the divide and I was returning home. If you see a beat-up red 93 Acura Integra in town with a franken-rack on the back, that’s me. And that’s some beautiful work you do building frames…true craftsmanship. Take care….Chad
The BOA cable unclips from the hooky loopy thing on the outerside of the shoe. Makes for easy exit/entry. You only have to loosen the dial enough to unhook. I promise.
So i unhooked the BOA loop for a few rides and i gotta say…it’s not much easier to put the shoes on. The overlapping tongue I’ve decided is what makes it more challenging to put on, it’s not all the BOA’s fault. It’s also not too easy to unhook the loop from the shoe, fingernails are involved, of which I don’t have much of. But it IS doable, but doesn’t help all that much in my honest opinion!
This was a well-timed post for me, as I’ve been sliding dangerously in my shoes when I have to hike-a-bike on rocks. I’m going to check out these shoes.
Hope you’re still safe from the fire.
OK, now I’m drooling ! Can’t wait to give this a go! Ordered the rest of the build today….fairly modest, but long lasting in a bombproof sort of way. The frame is beautiful as it is, I really think the color and the fork will set this on fire…! After the build I’ll get some good photos for your portfolio…I know this one will be sweet. Man, Thanks!
Have been to a course in Golden (Juvenile detention facility grounds) that you may already know about…a permanent course. And Lee Waldman’s baby. Had a clinic there Monday w/20+ riders, and tonite the faithful, burning in the course. It’s real cyclocross, nothing terribly fancy, and enough natural deviations to make 8 minute laps seem fast …..lots of twists and turns to make it near impossible to remember which is which. Then we go at it in reverse….I’m not a very good cyclocross racer, but I love riding that stuff, and getting it right every once in awhile sure makes up for the blunders…..well, seems to. Rained inches here tonite, couple of hours before sunset,so the sky was a yellow haze coming out of the storm ….freaky gorgeous.
Paul http://www.crosspropz.com 720.203.3731
When this sort of thing was happening in Boulder, the horse folks refused to work with us, then they were shocked when they lost access to a ton of trails. If you like access to public lands and outdoor recreation, it’s always better to work together than try to ban each other. Sorry to hear that trail access is a problem at the new digs…
How did the Rabbit Hole / Knard set up do on the snow?
Well, i only got out for two rides before it stopped snowing last winter (Sierras). But from what I can tell, the setup is worthy of most packed snow conditions and most of the days that I’ll be out riding here – which is snowmobile or cat-packed trails or snowshoe packed trails even. I ran the tires at 7psi front, 10 rear but it was a pretty warm day with packed snow. It’s definitely not going to be as good for soft snow conditions as a 26×3.8″ setup or fatter with 5psi.
Here’s what I wrote after the first ride on the snow:
http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/2013/02/24/knard-ride-report-snow/
I’m straight off to get one of those. There’s nothing like having the stuff to make life just that little bit smoother.
Unscrewing that drawbar each time might be just another little thing, but they niggle away at my brain while I’m working, and make me all snarky.
Thanks for that Whit…
I unwrapped my Cyclo race cutter today and scratched my head as I looked at the threaded 1 1/8th spring tensioner. Who uses threaded 1 1/8th steerers? I used one of my paragon tube blocks to hold the spring against the cutter and gave it a few turns before I realized it wasn’t cutting like I expected. After a little searching I came across your site and saw that you are using the same tool. My next step is to use the file a bit like you suggest to get the dimension closer to the finished size. Maybe 450 for the Park tool is a bargain.
For lugged crowns without a lathe it’s a total PITA. I think the Cyclus cutter that cuts both the face (down) and outside of race (inside of cutter) would work better (like the Park version), but filing to start the process will prolong cutter life/money and give a much smoother finish. I learned the hard way…
Where did you get the magnet that will handle brazing temps? I tried a ton of different ones and they all go amorphous/nonmagnetic.
Alnico horseshoe magnets at MSC. They’re stupid costly but I think worth at least one. Lots of sizes too.
I saw someone’s picture awhile ago (can’t remember who) using a smaller alnico magnet for holding cable stops, etc. in place while brazing.
Great write up Whit. It was fun to read about some areas I don’t get to ride often/at all. Thanks
Great accounting of your adventures. Although, I am sort of glad that you live 1,000 miles away so i can’t ever be talked into a ride so demanding! Good on ya’.
Looks great as usual!
What size tires it will have or be able to take?
Thanks! It will fit the Surly Bud/Lou tire combo. I’m waiting on a 190 Borealis rear hub/Fatback 135 front on Clown Shoe wheelset. I’m trying something different with the rear end, we’ll see how it turns out. Then I can measure up the tires and post, but for now I’ll trust the Surly tire specs on their blog. My Rolling Darryl wheelset is in use and I just can’t muster up the motivation to swap tires just to measure them up on RD’s.
I look forward to see what you come up with!
I’m also trusting Surly’s numbers, as I don’t have the wheels and the tires yet. Please post the measurments once you get the wheelset.
beautiful ride! thanks for sharing
Hi,
You helped me a while back with some welding questions. It must have worked since I did complete my first TIG welded frame, a 29er that is still stuck together.
Anyhow, I was starting to think about another project and due to the difficulty of finding conventional 1 1/8 steerer forks I was thinking of building a mountain bike around a 44mm i.d. headtube. But, as you found out, it would slip right over my Henry James jig cones.
I see your advice about the motorcycle cones. In my limited searching it doesn’t seem that they are still there on eBay. I see some cones for sale online but the ones I found are for a 3/4″ threaded rod. I was wondering if your cones are of this type or if they have a smooth bore.
Thanks,
Jason
Very cool on the frame, glad I could help out!
For the larger cones, the ones I got on eBay were not threaded. Once I sold my Access jig (with the cones), Joe Bringheli turned a couple cones out for my small alignment table at a reasonable price ($75 i think?). They have a set screw to keep them in place on the 3/4″ rod that fits in the head tube for measuring alignment and coldsetting.
I’m surprised that Hank doesn’t offer something for his jigs yet since it’s the standard head tube size for MTB’s now.
Good luck on the build!
Nice fork. What is A-C measurement?
What is your opinion on 1″x0.035″ fork legs, looks like you’re using them on many of your forks?
That fork used the same specs as the non-offset Pugsley since it was going on a Necromancer Pug: 447 atc and 43 offset?
I really like the ride of the 1×0.035″ lower legs. They have a nice flex to them and I like building with the upper “lugged” sleeves. I know many others use straight 1.125 x 0.035 with some kind of support or gusset at the crown and that works great too, and is less work.
Thanks for the info!
Wouldya look at the views..!
Interesting stuff Whit, and congratulations on the welding breakthrough.
Thanks Alistair! It’s funny because I feel like I’m starting over again in welding now that I’m using the pulser. It’s endless the tweaking one can make to the settings. I had just figured out the straight amp values I liked for each tube joint and now I go and change the whole process up.
For sure. The fact that pretty big improvements in results can come from relatively small changes in technique is fascinating to me. I think that’s why this stuff can be so difficult to describe with words. Ultimately, you can only get really good by doing. Having someone tell you what to do can only get you so far. This is what makes the breakthrough moments so sweet.
Looks boss! What’s the elevated CS bike for? We luvz teh weird!
Thanks man! Trying out the slack n short chainstay geometry on a fatbike that fits Lou 4.7’s on Clown Shoe rims, should be fun. Once back from paint I’ll post some pics. It’s a funny lookin bike…
What amps you running with those pulse settings?
It’s a whole new ballgame to figure them out:)
I use higher amps like 120-150 but cut the peak to 35% and the background to 15% at 1pps. And if I’m doing edge pieces, or something thin, take to pulses up to 30pps. These came from Carl Snarl from metalguru, cheers
Thanks Andy for the settings advice!
I’m having trouble comparing the units between people’s machines.
On my ThermalArc I have a “Peak Amps” setting which I set to 80-110 depending on the wall thickness. The next setting is the “Base/Background Current” which I set to 25amps. I believe this is the 15% your referring to on your machine? If so would that be 15% of 120-150amps and be 18-23amps. The next setting I have is the “Pulse Width” which “sets the percentage of time of the Pulse Frequency for Peak weld current when the PULSE is on.” I’m assuming this is your 35%? I have mine set at 45%.
The last setting other than the purge seconds is the “Pulse Frequency” which is pretty obvious and I set that at 1.7 for the above welds but have tried 1-3, never 30 though!
I’ll have to give those settings a try on my machine. A higher peak amps with a shorter % of time on the Peak current may help penetration and prevent burn through on thin stuff. The 15% is lower than my settings and makes sense to me to be so low on the cool part of the pulse. This will be a fun day in the shop!
Using the pulser was a game changer for me as well. I typically run my peak at 60% and my background at 20%. I use the pulser on every joint and love it. I’m also a “lay the filler” type. I don’t dab at all, I feel like my welds are way more consistent with that technique. Thanks for the post.
Thanks for the comment Collin. When you say 60% peak, what amps is that? I’m having trouble translating the different machine setting names. The laying of the filler rod for me made the biggest difference since you should never starve the puddle and undercut the joint. I like how it fills the gap in the slight miter gaps. I do experience some balling of the filler rod though and that is something I hope will stop happening with more practice.
Whit, I think the confusion comes from the way that people interchange amperage and time when talking about pulser settings. Different brands define the pulse parameters in different ways (as you’ve alluded to) so it can take a couple of seconds to tell which system you’re looking at.
Regarding high freq pulsing, I’ve seen some videos over at “Welding TIps and Tricks.com where this was used. Seems that some find that the puddle excitation that results from pulser frequency’s of 25Hz and above to be beneficial when welding thinwalled tubing.
Never tried it myself, my old welder won’t pulse that high. I think it’s a more recent feature of the more modern inverters. Your Thermal Arc unit can do it I think?
I did some practice welds today to get a better handle on the settings with some 0.6 to 1.25mm tubing to simulate a top tube/head tube joint. My ThermalArc can do 500pps but I didn’t try it out 🙂
I tried 30pps and it was mildly annoying. I’m sure with practice it would be fine but for now I like 2-3pps max and just moving the torch faster or lowering the peak amps for thin walled stuff.
Yeah that 30pps is just a problem solver trick. I use 1pps for everything except like filling up the end of a seat stay. That super low background helps me from blowing through, and use enough amps to get good penetration. It took a while for me to get used to the settings Carl at metalguru used. We used 150a for headtubes/bb and maybe 135 for the thin stuff! But limiting peak/background lets good penetration and still keeps it manageable. guru ca not carl metalguru.
Whit, I have a Miller Dynasty and for it the peak is actually the percent of time that it’s at the main amps you set. So it’s not actually going higher than your main amperage setting. The background percent is the percent of amps (not time) you are set to. So if your at 50amps and your background is 20%, your background is 10amps. I run at 1.2pps but I’m going to experiment more with a much higher PPS in some areas to see if I can tighten things up a bit (like the outside edge of a hooded dropout). I’ve tried PPS in the 30-50 range but the sound bothers me and it wasn’t a huge change to me. My Miller documentation states that anything over 100 PPS is considered high-speed pulse and will resort in a smaller bead and smaller HAZ. Might experiment with that too on some scraps.
I love it! If there’s anyone that knows riding in snow, it’s Curiak. I’m tempted to build myself an elevated chainstay rig now… you bastard!
Good! We can compete for the ugliest fatbike award! I think with my poop brown paint job and the e-stays I’ll be hard to beat.
Oh, I can do ugly. Are you seriously challenging me? We should probably get Garro in on it too, he and I have had a “worst frame picture” contest going for a while. I think I won by posing a frame in front of the diaper pail.
I have always wanted to take a Paragon head tube and drill some big speed holes in it… maybe this is my chance. There are a bunch of hideous dropouts that Nova sells that would be good… make the seatstays larger diameter than the chainstays (A LOT LARGER!)…downward curving toptube…huge long bi-lam lugs with holes drilled in them? Oh, and I *like* headset spacers… so I’m going to do a 100mm head tube and 100mm of spacers.
I think mixing joinery styles would be good too. Big huge fillet for the toptube/headtube, then minimalist TIG for the downtube?
See? Just off the top of my head I totally kicked your ass. Now go ride your pretty little fatbike.
Oh man…that’s freaking awesome. I can already picture it, please do it! I’ll be happy to lose if you build yourself a fatty to ride in Park City and piss off the nordik’ers. We could have a category at the next NAHBS even. Bikes nobody can buy not because they’re too expensive but because they’re hideous!
But did you SEE my 2nd fatbike? The other brown one? It’s even uglier and it actually has some of the “features” you mention in your comment… Seastays larger diameter than the chainstays, check! The BB cluster is a veritable clusterf*&k of tubes:
http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/meet-ts-choad/
We would need some kind of secret society – you bring your ugly bike with a “UB” somewhere on it so others will know. Then we can have a vote on the ironic/intentional winner and the non-ironic unintentional one. I have a feeling the overall would go to an unintentional entry, but who knows?
Might be fun to have an unsafe-bike contest too. We’ll put on full body armor and takes turns riding them off a curb. Whichever bike shatters in the most satisfying manner wins. Bonus points if the bike also won a “real” award at the show. If your frame breaks on the first pedal stroke, or when someone sits on the saddle, even more bonus points.
I think people will know just by lookin at it, no need for a “UB” badge! The unintentional entries would be hilarious since we could ‘brand’ them as UB and totally offend the creator.
Man, this is starting to sound a bit like Sadoff’s bike show award categories:
http://overopinionatedframebuilder.blogspot.com/2011/03/bike-show-awards-special-post.html
I laugh out loud every time I read that post.
The drywall bilam is by far the unsafest thing I’ve ever heard of! I’d love to have the category for the most “environmental” bike where if you left it outside for more than a month it’d biodegrade completely. Only by constant care would it live (literally) longer.
I am thinking glued-together drywall covered with a thin layer of carbon fiber for appearance (bi-lam!) might be a good material for the unsafe bike contest. Think of the dust cloud when it disintegrates! And as long as you kept the carbon super thin, I don’t think you’d cut yourself on the shards or anything, either. You could go down in a cloud of drywall dust and get up with practically nothing left of the frame!
Full disclosure on this build and some words of caution for people attempting this type of bike – watch the chainline and S-bend chainstay interference. Specifically, i put too much bend in the 2nd bend so it is too close to the cassette. So much so that my chain rubs on the inside of the chainstay while in the lower cassette cogs. I’ll try messing with the crank’s chainline with the BB spacers but..nothing much else I can do about it now. Crimp the stays, shorten the chainline, and deal with it till the next try. Experimental build, didn’t have the 190 axle and wheels on hand, should have waited! Live and learn.
Ha! oK, maybe you’re not a top ranked “cool frame builder” in your eyes….(and who’s eyes matter?) BUT, you are a FRAMEBUILDER with a fair amount of chop. When I ride my Meriwether I’m really not thinking about what school you’re from, what classes you took, or type of tools you use. I think about the ride. The Ride. What you have accomplished is making bikes that you like and furthering your experience by making bikes that others like. I was on my Meriwether today….single track, gravel, dirt, wind. The bike was wonderful, the handling was forgiving ( rusty here) and the ride was smooth, crisp, and it’s getting to be predictable…..shooting out of turns still amazes me. I may convert this SS to geared sooner than later, as I can’t develop the speed I want and know this rig can handle. So there, Mr. I’mnotascoolasotherframebuilders, I think you are! Happy New Year, Whit.
And SueBeeDoo, guppies and monsters,
Paul http://www.crosspropz.com
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Hi, Whit…kind of ‘off-topic’, but what auto-darkening helmet do you use? I’m running a Speedglas 9100, which is just fine on 80+ Amp AC aluminium, but tends to cut out on lighter steel stuff. I’ve also tried a flip-down, bit it’s just a PITA and it’s far too easy to get out of position before you’ve even started.
Thanks, Dan
Hey Dan,
I picked up the same hood as you this summer – 9100XX. I set it at the lowest I can (9) and it does pretty good for me. I set it at that when I’m using straight amps at 50-80 and also for pulsing up to 130 and does pretty well. Still not as crisp a picture as a regular gold lens but it does better than the Miller Elite I had before. The Elite has 4 sensors which is definitely better for never getting flashed, but the Speedglas has that flash-guard function that really does help for me on those tight areas. But I agree that the auto hoods aren’t great at low amps. I use a 1x ‘cheater’ lens that helps but overall the auto-green filter is definitely not as clear as a good flip-down lens.
Wait…what?! My frames are not built by a cool framebuilder? Did you bump your head or something?
Yep, I’m a poser and a nobody. I’m going to change my name to “Nobody Cycles”
Some others:
-As of the last time I saw you, you had no ironic facial hair or tattoos.
-You have totally failed to use any black and white or sepia photos on your blog.
-You are aware of, and interested in, the geometry of the bikes you build.
-You wear safety glasses when operating power tools.
-You don’t own a newsboy hat or wear a cycling cap under your helmet. Hell, just wearing a helmet disqualifies you from really being cool.
Mitering with files sucks. I only did it for _x_ frames because I didn’t really know what a milling machine was. Once I found out I bought one.
-Walt
but Whit wears a cycling cap under his helmet! Although the helmet negates the hat…so close to being cool…so close.
Those are brilliant additions to my list. I do really need to work on getting a sweet tattoo especially now that I’m in California, and post more sepia photos of me at the chop saw.
But like Josh says I cover my balding noggin with a cap, I’m a sweater!
http://meriwethercycles.wordpress.com/page/2/#jp-carousel-3482
You don’t count on the “filing” thing since you state it in a more self-deprecating fashion than a rite of passage…
Actually, you’re not the only one who has been thinking about a snowmobile for this purpose! It takes a really long time for a solo biker to pack a trail with snowshoes before they even go out for a ride – and then, if they live in the Front Range, the wind might even kick up before they get to enjoy the fruits of their labor. But, it’s all still fun!
I liked the article. Thanks!
oof!
Sounds great! Beach riding must be fun!
What did “The Missus” think of her new name 🙂
Enjoyed this post Whit. Thanks.
4.7″ holy smokes! That’s a lot of tire! What does an eFat build cost the way you have yours setup? ( retail) curious as something like that would get me off the rollers. You probably have a long list of orders by now, I hope so, especially if that’s what you want. The SS 29er is my favorite bike these days …. it does everything! Gears next for more speed. Vroom. Hope you are well,
Paul CrossPropz.com
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Hey Paul, yeah, those tires are FAT! If you’re looking for this season I’d head over to TinShed and see if they have any Faboy’s left, or a Pugsley. I’d be happy to put you in the queue, but it’d be next winter before you saw the bike! I’m not sure I’ll make the elevated chainstay frame for anyone until I get some things worked out with the design, as well as test it a bit more 🙂
If you put some 2.4’s on your bike as well as gears, I bet you could lower the tire pressure enough to get some packed snow riding done up at Peaceful Valley.
Cheers,
Whit
I’m considering both the Anvil and the Henry James, Can you give me an assessment on the two: advantages/disadvantages for a garage builder?
I’ll write something up in a day or two. But if you have the money get the Anvil, it’s a set it and forget it fixture. Access65 is nice for a tighter budget but I don’t think it’s on the same level as the JMan. Version 4.0 looks to be a step up even further…
Thanks, I expect there to be differences. The question is are they worth 2K. I’ve worked with the Anvil some already, but only build 4 bikes a year currently. That won’t change much in the future. Really appreciate your thoughts. Also, I love the honest and true to experience blog.
Thanks, I’m happy to hear you like the blog!
I think if you’re not planning to sell bikes and don’t need or want to ensure extreme efficiency and precision, and don’t mind futzing with the fixture more to get it set up, the HJ’s are totally fine. I’ve not used the Universal jig and that may be nicer with all the tube holding parts incorporated. But that’s not that much less cost than the Anvil. I didn’t like the rear axle on my HJ, the indexed Anvil is way better and can be used on any if his fixtures or on your own creations.
If I were going to be making frames for a long time I’d save up for the JMan. But it’s not needed and you will make great frames on an HJ. The Access series I think is better for brazing types, especially the head tube access to tack and braze or weld in the fixture. Not as rigid IMO though as the JMan.
Some may want to upgrade to the new version so you may be able to get a used one in the coming year.
How have you found the durability of these decals. Are they proving quite tough. I have also seen these DuraTAG Ink Transfers. Check out the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfJeLc3ANJo
Haven’t been able to get in contact with them yet but look good
Jon,
The durability has been excellent for the decals so far. It’s not been very long of a test period though. I know SSSink does decals for some big bike companies though, so I imagine that the durability is very good. You really have to take a sharp object to scratch the decal and leave a mark. Getting them off once set is not a ‘peeling’ operation but a scratch-with-your-fingernail for a LONG time until you get every last piece off, then take acetone to get the rest of the residue off. These aren’t in the same ballpark as normal thin vinyl decals, they’re VERY thin and once on there are meant to stay on. But positioning them right is key. If you mess up and even dab the sticker onto the frame, it’ll separate and peel and then you have to start over with a new decal. I haven’t heard of DuraTAG but it looks really promising! I like how you can position the decal before sticking it down. That’s a really helpful feature in my opinion.
Hey Whit, are those jewelers saws? what size, I like that idea better than my alternating tooth one
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5515/11002312655_a5bc4b522c_m.jpg
thanks
andy walker
Hey Andy,
yep, those are Malco jewelers saws. I can’t remember the tooth count but they’re the 3″ diameter version. I wish they made thicker ones too.
I’d say 73mm BB square taper, spindles from 107mm to 122mm or something like this, no?
But I’ve heard that bearings should be shown to everybody these days and I might be the only shy MTB’er left keeping them hidden, non-external 🙂
For BB height, just get a pair of short cranks and a pair of long ones…j/k
Anyway, I hope for you that more technical-savvy people than me will chime in ’cause I don’t think I helped you much here… but I wanted to let you know that I do read and enjoy your blog.
Raoul, thanks for the comment!
No, you’re not the only one, I still have a square taper BB on one bike! They just never die. But i do like the ease of removing the cranks and bearings on external bearing BB’s and feel that they are stiffer. But i don’t feel they last as long as a good square taper bottom bracket (Phil Wood). Stiffness aside, it’s a good recommendation for chainline adjustment alone. I go back and forth on caring about real and perceived BB axle stiffness and weight on a non-racing MTB. We’ll see. I think the chainline is more important than the BB height so maybe I’ll just put a Rohloff on the bike and solve that problem. Wait, then i’d need TWO Speedhubs! Damn.
See, in the end you might as well make yourself 2 bikes instead of the false economy of a combo bike, ha!
I agree, wait, that’s my initial point! Ok, two bikes it is.
And don’t forget, Camp Dick is adjacent to Beaver Reservoir…
Whit,
I have been lurking for a while but I like to keep up with what you are doing because you speak a language (frame design details) that I just don’t hear about elsewhere. That and when I read your stuff it is like your know my thoughts sometimes.
Ok “someday soon” I want to come to you knowing I will be asking for a disc all-rounder 29er/700c wheels with tires typically 38-60 wide, set up for dirt drops, with as low a BB as possible (using 180 cranks) and wanting a tall headtube.
So I am clearly on the urban side of your extreme rides for some reason finding these things is like pulling teeth elsewhere. Oh and using a decent HT tubing, not the lightest and not the heaviest either, still trying to really learn the effects of trail (and the different ways to get there) are in real life.
So yes multiuse, but I also see that the more narrowly defined the criterion the better performing the expectation can be.
Kevin
Kevin,
Thanks for the comment, and i’d be happy to make you a frame and fork for that type of riding! (It’s actually something I’ve been wanting to build myself as a v2 for my current all-rounder.)
The Trail effect is a hard one to get a good handle on unless you really exaggerate the trail on the same frame by varying the fork offset. I made an adjustable rake fork to do just that when I first started building bikes a few years ago.
I’m sure you’ve read all about it online but just in case Wikipedia has a good writeup and motorcycle geometry books go into it well beyond my mathematical prowess. I tend to like more offset on my forks since that “allows” a slacker head tube angle to be used while preserving a relatively quick-steering feel. More offset shortens the trail figure (and lengthens the front center a bit which can be compensated) for a bike that’ll roll over stuff smoother and be more stable at speed. For something that’ll be loaded and going fast on pavement this could be a nice addition to a low BB. On dirt, it’s been researched a lot with suspension and more fork manufacturers are starting to offer higher offset forks than before (not just 44 or 46 but 51mm).
Whit,
I had a hard time posting a reply, and maybe it was best to take it off line anyway. So I sent you a note btw good to hear you are busy building.
Kevin
What would be your to go rim for the Knard? I weigh about 70kg…
I am soon mounting up a set of Velocity Dually rims, so that’s my choice. There aren’t many options yet but more will be out in the next year or so (I think).
If you want to run tubeless, I’d go with the non-cut-out Duallys. The Surly Rabbit Holes are pretty good rims but I’d rather have no cutouts and nicer finish to the rims. Northpaw Components also makes a 29 x 47 wide rim I think but it’s also got cutouts.
If you’re wanting to wait for something lighter, i bet there will be a carbon 47-50mm wide rim coming out sometime next year, maybe Whisky Components or the like. Totally guessing there but with at least TWO more tire choices now (Vee Rubber and Maxxis) it’s just a matter of time…
Good work Whit. Nice aesthetic all the way round. But I especially like the rear dropouts, very refreshing. And committed.
What fun! Can’t wait to hear your impressions of the differences in how each of them rides.
Taking over the world…one ‘cross bike at a time!
Man, I miss Ned!
Park City rocks but it doesn’t have the same vibe and the same under-the-radar trail system where you can really get lost out there.
Walt – I’d love to discuss your thoughts on Park City…there is a push from below to create “experience zones” throughout the Ned trail network. Gone will be the experience of feeling lost in your own backyard.
My thoughts on Park City are that I need to find the locals who know where the gnar is – because the local trailbuilding orgs do a great job, but all they build is smooth twisties with a few switchbacks thrown in. Nary a rock or root in sight!
In truth, I think we just were in Ned/Boulder at the right time when “pirate” trails could exist and not cause an uproar due to the low volume of riders. Those days are probably over, c’est la vie.
Hey man, just wanted to say I really appreciate your blog and just spent the last few months reading through all the posts (particularly the frame building posts), as I am currently working on starting the learning process to build frames myself – got most of the tools, torch, etc, and plan on getting the first one going in the next month or two. Yours has been very informative and a great addition to the scattered resources out there to learn this skill. I also dig the direction you are going with your bikes and am looking forward to getting on a 29+ bike soon – hopefully one I design and build for myself.
I just wanted to say that and to also agree with you on the cross-bike going 40’s/all-around bike trend that is currently developing. I think the 650b crowd has been dabbling in this for awhile converting the old 80’s trek mountain bikes into something like this. I recently had a cross check modified by a frame builder to work with 650b wheels for my GF, and the smaller wheels have allowed us to fit some 48’s on it and she takes it out on the trails in S. Boulder, Marshall Mesa, etc, and loves it for that kind of riding along with general around town and gravel road stuff too. It makes for a pretty good all-around setup being road worthy and light trail worthy as well. Keep up the awesome blog and look forward to seeing some of your frames out there someday soon.
-Jon
Thanks Jon! Happy to hear someone finds my rants useful 🙂
I’ll try to keep up the framebuilding posts, hopefully won’t repeat myself. I find myself searching my own blog for how I did things that I’ve since forgot. Kinda was my idea when starting this blog of my ‘journey’ into framebuilding (hate that term but if the shoe fits..).
Good luck with your first build and have fun!
beautiful. one of my favorite times of year. glad your knee if feeling better, my friend.
thanks for the report from Carmel. So glad to be getting in the queue can’t wait!
Sweet!
Hey Whit, thanks for another interesting post. It may not be symmetrical, but it’s pretty neat:
http://bikemagic.com/wp-content/uploads/old_images/news/images/Ragley-Ti-3-hi.jpg
But does it accomplish the tire and chainring clearances desired? If so, I prefer your solution to the Paragon yoke (unless it requires greater than $185 of your time).
The half-yoke definitely has the chainring clearance and chainline dialed but I’m unsure if it’ll rub the tire in the lowest gears. I was able to put a XX1 crank on there with a 32t ring and had tons of room. I’m pretty sure that a triple crank would fit too. Whether the chain would clear the tire in the lowest gears is another story. Tire clearance is just OK. I’d prefer more room so an adding an arc to the plate in a half-yoke would be a good call especially for a shorter chainstay frame.
BTW, I’ve commandeered this frame for my own to test and am currently re-making Adam’s frame with the Paragon yoke. The yoke is beautiful but i have mixed feelings so far. First, the cost and the added amount of work for such an expensive piece. It comes in two pieces, needs to be milled for internal purging, and then fused together before anything else. Second, it’s very difficult to get chainstays shorter than 450mm because of the design. The two parts of the yoke that get welded to the BB shell are easier to weld when longer (fitting the torch in there is already going to be hard at 450mm). As comparison to show what I mean, Hunter Cycles’ yoke could be cut close to the BB and still be easy to weld. He says it’s a lot of pieces to set up as it is though.
In the end i bet the Paragon yoke will be the same amount of setup time as the half-yoke but a much better (stiffer, lighter, stronger) design. But I’m still leaning towards using an 83mm BB shell for 29+ since you can use normal oval chainstays, get a short chainstay length, and get a good chainline (using a 150 rear hub of course).
EDIT/Correction on my comment:
you can get shorter chainstays than 450 no problem with the Paragon yoke. I just welded up a 445mm chainstay and there’s about 18mm from a knard on a RH to the yoke with 20mm arms in front to weld to the BB. Depending on your tire clearance cutoff one could get down to 435 or so, if desired.
And that comment about Rivendell is hilarious.
Looks great! Chainstay length?
Chainstay length isn’t too short actually on this frame: ended up being 439 actual (17″ effective length – horizontal to the ground). The frame’s got 70mm of BB drop to lower the BB a tad more than the Krampus (65mm drop). I think I should be able to run 2.4’s on the frame too and get a BB height hovering around 12″ which should be good for bikepacking.
You think Dale’s fast on the Retrotec, you should see him on his Trance……
I can only imagine! Trying to keep up on a rigid was funny
I like the 120/95mm Talas, although the jury is out about the travel adjust feature. I am putting it to the test when I think of it, but mostly it stays at 120mm. However, if I left it at 95mm I’d probably be happy too.
I might consider a Float next time for simplicity, but this was readily available to me at the time. In all, it is a great fork. I also serviced Lael’s Reba the other day and removed both travel spacers, so she’s rolling on 120mm too.
Sweet build. In all honestly, if Meriwether mass produces a bike, that’s the one. Crank them out and they will sell. I’d love one.
wow, that is one beauuuuuuuutiful looking machine! i’m so excited you finally got a suspension fork, yet so bummed as well. i mean, i couldn’t keep up with you on the down stuff when you rode rigid. now? forget about it! HA! no matter, we’re gonna have a blast on the upcoming tour and that bike will totally be in its element!
do you think it would have been possible to braze the yoke together?
Thanks and great write up about that yoke, I’ve been seeing it a bunch and hadn’t seen any written feedback
-matt
A guy on mtbr’s framebuilding forum brazed the halves together but it’s really not designed for that method, they are air tight. You’d probably want to somehow create some space for the filler…?
Pussy. Imposter. Suspension? What happened to the real Whit?
I’m getting old! And so new school. But really…I’ve had suspension before but not carbon bars and cranks! I’m still scared they’re going to break each ride.
Knards in the Fox? Any mods to the arch for more appropriate clearance.
oh, and i only get occasional rock flingings off the fork arch, not enough for me to want to make more room (yet). I don’t ride in mud much either so I’m leaving it. With a RH instead of the Dually i’d have a bit more room too so may change back to that front wheel but I am digging tubeless up there. I’m also hoping with the addition of a few more tires to choose from that one may be a bit smaller than the Knard. Yes, smaller! Just by a smidgen.
Smaller, and more tubeless friendly with a tougher casing, and a more aggressive tread pattern. I’m digging the 2.4″ Ardents on 35mm LB and Derby rims, although I’ve already managed to cut a sidewall on these paper-thin skinwalls. I’ve got 2.35″ Schwalbe Hans Dampf tires in the mail. I think Lael gets a 2.25 Nobby Nic in the rear and a 2.4 Ardent up front, with an EXO casing of course. With Schwalbe Snakeskin and Maxxis EXO casings, I don’t worry about tire cuts or spares with these tires, even on a longer tour.
Awesome! Looks to be my size, shall I send my address?
No way man! Your time on the Krampus will be great ‘research’ and help inform what I build you next year…
Alright, alright, I can wait. I’m really happy with the Krampus as a big-boned 29er, and I’m happy to have room for a double crank and FD with a 2.4″ tire on 35mm rims. There is lots of room to spare, without looking strange. It may be the perfect hardtail bikepacking 29er for bigger taller folks, or anyone who like tires in excess of 2.3″. Glad to see most modern suspension forks are growing tire clearance. The MRP Stage looks like a nice one too.
Of course, you’ll have to get your hands on a Bluto, although I’m sure you’ve already got one on the way.
No mods yet, and no dremeling of the crown, but I plan on tuning it so I don’t have to keep 130psi in there to stop it from bottoming out. I’m at about 15% sag. I’ve tested it with gear (15lbs plus 2 water bottles) and i don’t bottom out even on big hits, but I would rather have a bit less travel and have plusher travel. Any recommendations from your time on this fork? I really like the fork so far.
Your first bike was a 1985 Schwinn High Sierra? Did I read that right? The whole story here is brilliant.
Hah, I know you loved your High Sierra. You put a few more miles on yours than mine 🙂
It was my first *mountain* bike. Had a Schwinn Tornado and a Raleigh BMX bike before that. Sadly, I don’t think I ever got to ride the High Sierra on Tam before it got stolen.
Lotsa work on this one! Should be a super commuter, well done.
That trip looked amazing! Even with the washed out areas, it looked really beautiful. I have a question about the saddle packs, they look like a great way to carry stuff, rather than panniers. Who makes them? Funny stuff down here, Ridley stolen last Tuesday, shows up on CL Saturday ( while I was home) brought pictures and all the info to the police Weds., and started calling them as soon as I saw it on CL…..the police called yesterday, they’re off on weekends….So,I know a town for weekend crime sprees if you’re interested. Quite a few Ridleys on the CL site for $700-900. I guess bike theft is a real problem here. Poop. Hope you guys are well,
Paul http://www.crosspropz.com 720.203.3731
>
I heard about the Ridley! What a fiasco! I’m not sure what I’d do in your situation.
The bikepacking bags are a mix of Revelate (Rear bag) and Bedrock (Front). Both great in their design and quality.
Great read Whit. I’ve ridden some sections over the years, tho long ago.
Thanks for the explanation. I just used one of the them, and I used two shortish pieces of 7/8″ tube with 0.045 wt pushed over the tube end of the yoke to keep things in place for tacking. I think that work well enough, so maybe it safes making a jig of sorts, it that makes sense.
mathias (mawis-bikes)
Thanks for the comment and tip Mathias. That makes a lot of sense to keep the yoke halves in phase, my method was much less elegant!
Excellent works, I hope you get lots more of these to build.
Kevin
Already left my reply on FB, but thanks again for the review along with the measurements etc., very helpful. Lookin’ forward to your tubeless review…and to try them for myself.
Nice recap, one-of-a-kind rides. Looking to do that Rose to Toads with a buddy who couldn’t make TD2NC… might need a guide.
R2T is so awesome, i’d definitely be into that again this year. Keep me posted…
Just what I am looking for, more in between tires. 3.0″ tires are too difficult to fit between chains and tires and forks. 2.8″ or even 2.75, 2.6, 2.5 is much better. I’m still really attached to my Hans Dampfs for now.
This looks rad. Perfect radius.
Super fun weekend! Great blog post
Looking forward to hearing how these hold up in the long run with the occasional rim strike etc.
Me too John, ive heard a few stories of riders if the enduro sort riding and hitting them really hard and not doing a thing to the rim. I’m hoping thats the case for me. The rear hub issue i had bugged me, and the bearing is still dragging. Will try to swap the driveside bearing soon to see if that helps.
Do you know what year that fork is? Apparently the bridge shape is different on newer models. Thanks!
I just got the fork this summer so it is the 2014 model! It’s the 32mm stanchion Talas with the 15qr. I think that’s the only one that fits. Or I got randomly lucky.
Cool, thanks! After looking at a bunch of photos I think the bridge is slightly different on the 2014. Also just noticed you’re using the Dually not the Rabbit Hole, d’oh! Wondering if that extra 5mm rim width will kill the clearance.
Also just noticed the sidewall wear. Sigh, so far the Vees seem way tougher than the Knards were but I guess not that long of a lifespan either.
I was running a Dually but now I’m on the ibis 941’s. In my experience, the wider the rim the wider the tire profile but it’s not a ton different. On my 2007 Fox Float with a QR the Knard on a RH fit fine. Swapped to a Dually and the tire wouldn’t clear the bridge on the top. Wheel wouldn’t spin! This new Fox Talas has more clearance, I think mostly due to the 15qr lowering the axle center around 6mm. Speculation there since I don’t have a non 15qr to compare it to.
The best current option for durability and ride quality is the 27tpi Knard in my opinion. Heavy as hell though. I don’t like how the Trax Fattys ride enough to choose them. The Bontrager Chupa’s are the far and away winner.
Argh, I guess I’m just really impatient and need to realize there just isn’t any perfect tire/fork combo yet. My knards would constantly get sidewall gashes from pinch flatting and rocks.
I haven’t seen Russell in ages, except on your blog! Nice air – all due to the Meriwether frame, I’m sure!
I haven’t either! Fun to see him having a blast on the bike. He’s a great test pilot.
Bummed to have missed it. I’ll be there for Chillbilly 4.
That is one beautiful bike! Well done!
So, how does it ride in soft snow – does the short chainstays and slack angles make for good soft snow handling? A super interesting bike!
Jay,
I do like it better than more normal geometry in soft snow. Positioning your weight over the back more has a big benefit for pedaling and maintaining momentum through soft snow. Downhills you have to use more body english to weight the front tire more so you don’t wash out, but I think that may be able to be helped with a shorter top tube/front center.
Short chainstays give better traction while pedaling and better soft conditions stability, and mixed with the high trail/slack HTA which unweights the front axle and gives the wheel the freedom NOT to dig in and take you in the wrong direction on a narrow trail (the soft unpacked sides). You still get wheel flop because of the high trail and your weight towards the back, but there’s no ‘consequences’ to it, if that makes sense. Your front wheel can kinda wander a little and plow through the snow and not take you off your desired course.
I think i’m realizing fatbikes are like all other bikes, you can’t have just one if you ride in different conditions. I would not take my XC bike to Whistler, so for what I envision the mid-west to be like (or places that are always groomed) I’d have a more ‘regular’/steeper longer geometry fatbike to cruise the miles away.
I’ll have more thoughts on this as the winter goes on since I’m making v2 of the latest E-stay fatbike, and it rides a ton different than my 1st e-stay fatty. I had a whole blog post of my thoughts last year but decided to get more time on them…and then winter never really came to my area 🙁
That makes sense, thanks for taking the time to reply. In my personal experience, high trail/slack HTA definitely makes for a nice snow bike (or at least all the steeper HTA ones I have tried don’t ride well in snow), and now I am wondering if a shorter chainstay would improve things even more. Do you have any plans to make frames like this for customers?
I’ll definitely make short and slack fatbike frames for anyone! In fact I have two in the works right now. But they won’t look like this e-stay one. I’m drawing up v2 of the e-stay one this week since it’s starting to snow finally…and hope to build it up on one of the upcoming weekends
The tube jaws look great! where are they from???
They’re made by Votaw Tool:
http://www.votawtool.com/magnetic-v-block-universal-vise-jaws.html
Great bio. And I love reading that you were up here for 24HOL. Come back to the Yukon for our newest event: 5+ Hours of Light on the winter solstice.
Skis on wrong feet for proper graphics…
Awesome, Whit.
Wow, this is one superb bike, and I know KB will be waiting for it to arrive. What a frame, details galore for all of us who have anyone in our family into any kind of biking. And I guess the only thing to make it better would be personal delivery!!! Christmas greetings to you both, from Jean in NZ.
Very nice.
Are you using the Nova 29er stays? Did you need to further manipulate them to get to 430mm?
I built my first fatbike with fairly standard angles 73/71. I’m pondering fatbike 2.0 and am considering changes. Are you sold on the short as possible CS with slack HT? I have noticed that I want to get my weight back on soft stuff. What’s the idea with the really slack HT and long front center, kind of let the front tire ride up more like a ski?
Thanks!
Thank you Jean in NZ, that’s really nice of you to comment
Jbyrne, I did dimple the Nova chainstays a bit in my normal way. I pretty much have to do all my frames that way, fatbike or not since everybody wants short chainstays. The bend on the Nova’s is probably right on a 4.8″ tire fatbike with 445mm stays or longer. But as you can see from this photo on my Flickr they could use a bigger bend to get down to 430.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/meriwethercycles/15645798288/
For geometry, I’m sold on short chainstays because of exactly what you say – weighting the rear wheel to get traction. That also pairs well with a slack HTA because unweighting the front wheel with a long front center (not too long though) and lots of trail to more easily track and push through soft snow instead of taking your front wheel where you don’t want it to go (off the trail). I’ve found with steeper angles you have to be so much more on it (concentrating where you don’t want your wheel to go) than with slacker angles/more trail. It’s just like riding in sand, you can stop your progress with too much forward weight. Lean back and you get through it. I feel it’s a similar feeling to riding in soft snow. Hardpack conditions are a different story, and if the trail is wide and groomed you can pretty much ride whatever geometry you want.
Thanks. The one weird thing is that slack/lots of trail traditionally means high speed stability but poor slow speed handling. The wheel wants to flop and it’s hard to hold a line going slow. But this rule of thumb seems turned on its head when riding in soft conditions. Is there some logical explanation for this?
What you say is true and…all I can say is that you should give it a try. I’ve written about this before on the blog and what holds true theoretically for ‘regular’ bikes has to be thrown out the window with Fatbikes. They are a different bike with such high volume, low pressure tires, and with such potentially soft conditions vs. dirt and pavement. If you think about it, riding on snow is similar to riding on a constantly changing, uneven and inconsistent terrain…so making the geometry slacker like a freeride bike makes sense. The front wheel and your steering becomes less sensitive to every little change in the “trail” and allows the bike to stay balanced while you plow through the varying snow conditions. But if you just ride well packed groomed ski runs it doesn’t matter as much.
What I’ve noticed is that when you first get on one of these bikes, whether it be a slack all-mountain rig or a slack fatbike, they do feel less stable on steep uphills and under around 5mph on flats, because of wheel flop. But once you actually start moving at even a pretty slow speed it stays more stable than a steeper-angled (twitchier) bike. You NEVER are climbing steep hills on a fatbike, if you are you’re walking or have studs and are on ice. I’ve done back to back testing on slack vs. steeper and there’s a noticeable difference.
By way of example, the new owner of the bike in this post went out on her first ride today. She has owned a Ti Fatback for about 5 years. She had this to say,
“Wow, I had an awesome ride. I rode the same trails as I did with my Fatback yesterday. Yesterday, it just about 50/50 walk/ride due to 8-12” of loose deep snow and no one but me packing trails. Your bike churns through the snow with incredible stability – I barely walked at all today! There’s so much less “losing control of the front wheel, falling off the track, and then flailing while I try to restart”. Seriously, I didn’t imagine that the new bike would make SUCH a huge difference. But it does. I seem to have better control over what the front wheel does. You nailed the geometry.”
Thanks so much for all the detail. Can I ask what kind of trail numbers you try to hit, >100mm?
I havent gone over 100 yet. I added more offset to that fork on the E-stay bike to keep it lower. There are a few new bikes coming out with this style geometry- the ice cream truck and beargrease i think are two.
Can you verify the year of that fork?
Hey Chris, i got it last summer new, 2014. It’s the Talas 32 stanchion 15qr.
Yes, which did you find the best for sloppy conditions as fat biking conditions are so variable.
Jay, I feel like v2 is better for loose sloppy conditions. With the rear wheel tucked under your butt more I feel like it’s easier to get traction and maneuver the bike (need to manhandle in spots!). The slack hta and longer front center are nice in that the front wheel doesn’t respond to every minor body input and take you off track. With a steeper hta and lower trail I liked riding hardpack but not when I didn’t want the front wheel to wander and potentially take me off my line. This is completely counterintuitive to some but in soft conditions its a real effect. Like riding in sand, you want less weight on the front axle to clean it, otherwise you stop dead in your tracks.
But on my current fatbike I shortened the front center and like it a lot better and have less washouts on the DH. A little more weight on the front helped (700 fc). It allows me to manhandle the bike better when it’s slippery climbing too.
Reblogged this on Kite*Surf*Bike*Rambling and commented:
I have been having these fat vs 29+ thoughts
How was this done(rim strip)??? What material, tape, strip, kinda covering for the holes? Are the wheels tubeless? Does it stand up to mud snow, or weather well???
Jay, not my bike so I’m not sure but… I bet it’s sparkly gold duct tape that he used as a rim strip. I’ve done it with black gorilla tape on clown shoes and you back two long pieces of tape sticky side together and then tape onto the rim so it stays put. It runs tubeless well this way snow and dirt. There’s a post on Gypsy by Trade awhile back that goes over a few methods I think. But just google gold duct tape and I bet you’ll find something good.
what size rotors did you use with that brake mount?
Hi Evan, I used a 160 rotor. Still using this fork!
thanks! im building a for for the first time and its very similar to yours! what gauge tubing did you use for the fork blades?
I honestly can’t remember, but they are the normal road blades that I bought through Nova. They’re not the new disc blades.
“Stickman” on Yogi Bear is not to keep out fellow MTBers. The Tahoe moto crowd is really sh*tty and does not respect MTB trails. If they are JRA and see a track, they tear the snot out of it.
That’s why it’s local custom to pick up your bike and carry it across road intersections, rather than riding across.
Whatever: thanks, I get it. That tactic is used frequently almost everywhere where trails cross private land or are just illegally built, including where I lived for many years. Motos were definitely one of the main reasons, but also non locals so the trails didn’t get discovered by the masses and then too used and abused. It’s not too surprising how many moto guys are also MTBers so it’s all kinda in vain especially with Strava and such.
Hi, thank you for putting this info out for us all to read. I have just finished my third frame and I’m having alignment issues with the rear triangle. When the the frame is mounted on the bb post on the alignment table and I fit a wheel I am finding that the front of the wheel is lower than the rear. It is like the chainstays are very slightly different lengths. I mitre by hand, I have tried to make sure they are perfectly the same. Is there any way to correct this? I am thinking of a second pass on one chainstay might work after reading this. I fillet braze not tig.
Thanks again.
David T
Hi David,
do you have any way of checking the dropout alignment? Using the Park FFG-2 or the like? That is likely what is going on if the stays are the exact same length. Could also appear that the wheel is not centered if the dropouts aren’t equally spaced away from the centerline of the frame. I’m sure you have seen the tool i use for checking this, and it can be found at Compass now: https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/framebuilding/compass-frame-alignment-tool/
A second pass isn’t needed unless you don’t have good bronze coverage, it’s almost always the case the chainstays need some cold-setting to get aligned.
Hi, thank you for your reply. I am using 12mm bolt through rear axle’s and I’m not sure they can be manipulated. I have one of the alignment gauges like you use and I like it a lot!
I appreciate your advice.
Thanks
David
Hmm, yes those are much harder to align and nobody makes a tool for that yet. If the dropouts are centered in the X and Y planes then it could be they are different lengths which is hard to fix unless you remove them and do it again. It’s possible by adding the seatstays it’ll make it all good enough. How much is the wheel off by? Also make sure the wheel is exactly dished and true of course!
It is off by approx 2mm. I will try to get the miters better on the next one, I might do a few bb and chainstays /dropout practice assemblies to see where I can improve. As the axle goes through smoothly it seems that I couldn’t take out the miss alignment at the dropouts or they would then not line up.
So much to learn!!
Thank you for your advice.
Yes they could break if you go over 470mm . The Pine Mtn with ridgid forks got a 500mm axle to top crown & 470 under the little bridge.
Go and look at : http://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2017/62822r-eng.php
Thanks for sharing that, i hadn’t heard! I’m wondering what they did to change the fork for the replacement. I don’t think it’s right to say the bending and breaking was due to the length alone but apparently something to do with the brake boss attachment point (stress riser on too thin fork blade tubing?). I can’t find any more info on what they did since they replaced the fork with another rigid of the same dimensions so it’s obviously not a length worry but something that was done wrong with the fabrication of the first version.
I was under the impression when i was writing this blog post many years ago that the length of the fork limitation by some builders was due to worry about FRAME failure not fork failures since you can overbuild the fork to not break but it could put undue stress on the frame and there have been some frames that have split open when forks were installed that were not intended to be used on the frame.
” what they did since ” I just believe they took some heavier gauge steel everywhere . I say that cause I have just bought and dismantle a brand new XXL left over ’17 Pine-Mtn to put some frame saver in it and the fork alone weighs as much as the frame , not kidding . I think most suspension fork should weigh less than this rigid one . I find your blog cause I ‘m looking not necessarily for a lighter one but for adjustability . I want something who can handle my road 700cc wheel ( … or 29” ) . The distance between the 2 dropouts of this heavyweighs forks is 110 mm . Nobody seem to have experiment with adjustable width front drop -out ? But their 110 spacing seem close to road standard of 100mm . The Pine-Mtn got the weird QR 110mm front hub and rear 141×9 mm QR ” boost” , socal ” standard” . Also , I want some removable post for canti . Previously , I looking at Walty Ti for this kind of fork .. but I’m not sure with this chineese co to get what I want . Tks , Pierre …some indulgence with my bad english lol
Hi Pierre,
Glad they beefed up the fork blades! But yeah…that sounds heavy! 🙂
At least it won’t break! lol.
I am not aware of any adjustable front dropouts for forks but do know a couple companies that make swappable end caps for wheels to go from standard 100mm spacing to the new Boost spacing (110mm). I read about the weird Marin front Boost QR and not sure what to say about why they did that.
MRP and Wolftooth both make the end caps to go between the two sizes for both front and rear wheels. But it’s not exactly what you were wanting since you have to swap the end caps on the wheels not the fork.
Hope that helps…
Yes , ends caps could be an option , Tks
I bought a set of these, shipped out to Australia, back around then to convert my mtb. We mostly fiddled with magic gears back then and these solved the problem perfectly. One of the best custom bike inventions ever. I have still have them in my parts box!
I’m on a sscx nowadays, but those discos were part of the reason I got hooked!
Nice rig! Paint and components really pulls it together! The want is strong!
That turned out amazing! Where did you find the hite-rite???
Cheers
EBay! I’m not sure who it is but it arrived from Fairfax, CA the home Breeze. They have new clamps for bigger diameter seatposts and silver or black springs.
Awesome bike!! That’s along the lines of what I want but to have the ability of 29 x 3, 27.5 x 3.8 and maybe even 26 x 4.0. I’d have a 83mm bottom bracket width and 177mm rear.
Besides you and you’re not building maybe only Waltwerks would be trusted to do this correctly.
Any reason other than looks for the extra tube in the front?
What kind of bars are those?
Thanks!!
Thank you!
Walt is the master at bikes like those IMO. Especially to fit the bigger tires. I could likely fit 26×3.8 and 27.5×3.8 too but i haven’t any tires to try to be sure. There are others too like Black Sheep and Oddity Cycles that I’d trust to get such a bike. That kicker tube is mostly looks but stiffens the front end since it’s such a LONG frame. The bars are Ti Oddity Razorbars, they’re awesome!
Awesome! Great story and pics
Do you still have the vertical mill head attachment for this little mill?
Yes I do. Haven’t used it much though.
Any chance you would part with it? Just picked up an M-20 and would like to be able to mill both horizontal and vertical.
Let me think about it? Send an email to me at Meriwethercycles at gmail and I’ll send some photos. I’ve never used the vertical but the guy I bought it from only was using that head.
Did you get my email?
what would you look for in a Late? Min Bore spindle etc?
It depends what you plan to do. If you’re not building forks don’t really need a big spindle bore, but bigger is better if your shop can fit it. The SB Heavy 10 is the framebuilder standard since it’s got the biggest bore for its size and such a good machine, hard to find though. If you’re just facing head tubes and small odd jobs something like my 9a with a 3/4” bore is ok, but I wish I had a heavy 10!
Wow! Amazing!
Thanks for all of this information as it’s a great resource now that I am getting back to building frames. For aligning thru-axle dropouts Jeff at Sputnik came up with these: http://www.sputniktool.com/h-tools/
Cheers!
Thanks! Yes those are awesome, definitely on the want-list. I do wonder if they would work on hooded dropouts though, once welded those don’t move!
Beautiful! Aesthetically, and functionally! This is the right direction for bikepacking evolution! Very pleasing to read this build up! Y’all are some bike wizards!
I was lucky enough to have a Whit Johnson built Meriwether and the whole process was amazing. The level of detail and passion for the build that Whit showed was impressive. The final creation, a bike built exactly to my dimensions and vision, is like nothing I have ever ridden before (and I’ve been riding and racing for 30 years). Not only does it look incredible – people stop me on the street – but the performance is just thrilling. I have a quiver of race ready, carbon road and mountain bikes and they just sit. This has become my only bike. I race it, I ride it in the woods, on the road, into the mountains, and to the store. This bike has restored my childhood love of riding. It’s that good.
Your builds are inspiring. I hope to work with you one day for my weird build.
Thanks for your passion and heart felt posts!
i have had the pleasure of knowing and riding with whit for over 20 years now. i also have the pleasure of owning three Meriwether bikes. all have their distinct purpose and ride quality and i love each and every one of them. that “RAD Ti” at the top of the page is my newest from him and it’s simply the most fantastic machine i’ve ever swung a leg over! he has been instrumental in recommending geometry, tubing and materials based on my riding style and the terrain i love to ride and explore most. whit is a master craftsperson, an excellent communicator and can absolutely make the bike you are dreaming of become reality! -timmy
Very interested, I’m 6’1 with 32 inseam. Currently ride 58cm . I have been looking for gravel bike for touring.
I’m also 6’1” with a proportionally linger torso than legs so this bike has great standover. It has eyelets for fenders but not rack mounts for panniers. However I could put a different fork on there like the Rodeo Spork (v2) that has bosses for both a rack and fenders and internal routing for a dynamo hub.
Send me an email and I’ll send more detailed photos of you want?
Meriwethercycles@gmail.com
Your 16-year-old self would have totally approved of your 46-year-old self.
🦄
Are you interested in making racks alone or only when paired with a full frame?
I can build racks for other frames but I’d need the frame shipped to me to use it as the “fixture”, so it would get costly. May need to add eyelets to the frame and that would mean a lot more work in stripping the paint, adding the attachment points, and repainting. So I’m up for figuring out something that would work but it isn’t super simple or cheap!
Awesome Whit!
Right on, I ride 26+, 27.5+ and 29+ rigid bikes both single speed and geared and love the continuing learning curve on rocky rooty Ozark trails.
Awesome! I remember that ride well.
I admire your passion for your craft, and hope your shingle is still out when I’m in a positive to have you build me another bike.
Nice! I repurposed my Moots Mooto-X 29 into a single speed “gravel grinder-commuter” bike with Salsa Cowchippers. Totally transformed it I Want to ride more! 👍
The world is ready for a Ti Meriwether rear Rack! 🙊
beautiful rig. JK and I did the Vermont Gravel Growler last summer (early September 2019) and I couldn’t stop looking at this bike. All-rounder, for sure.
Nice looking bike.
Where did you get those dropouts?
Paragon used to make them but no longer
Thanks I’m looking for one like those
Would that design be strong enough to add a Pinion to it?
I’ve yet to do a Pinon but will be making one this year for a fatbike. With a belt I would do it differently and make it asymmetric to minimize the chance of dropping the belt from flex
What a great story!! Thanks for sharing. As an old guy I appreciate how great the new and refreshing the sport was and how big it got only to retract over time.
Thanks for sharing your early passion for the sport!
Excellent story Whit! I haven’t heard of Ionic in a very long time. I thought those bikes were so cool! I was always into the smaller brands coming off my GT Karakoram. Everyone was into XC racing at that time as was I. It was “fun” at the time but I was only a mid-pack racer and enjoyed it to a point. Riding backcountry was the best and always will be compared to XC racing.
I am really loving that bike! Alas, it received its first christening with “dog team droppings” (aka dog poop from the local mushers) and so lost it’s new bike smell, but I am still really enjoying it. 🙂 Thanks again!
Beauty. Well Done, Whit
That looks rad; really dig the application and design.
I totally get this bike. Except for my rim brakes, it seems similar to my Bantam drop bar bike. I admire your work, and am pondering getting in your queue for my next project.
Love this. Also near 50, and recall seeing those IRD Stoker frames at the Revenge of the Sisqiyous in southern Oregon in like ‘89-‘90 and thinking “that’s the future”. Took about 30 years and that geometry seems to be where things are landing again (but with lower bb- the Stoker has a crazy high BB).
Also hoping to one day wind up in this build queue, admire your work and approach to builds.
That’s so cool, I never saw one in person. It’s good the BB’s have lowered since that design.
It’s amazing to see what has been done already and what we as a community circle back to and try again with some improvements. It’s a simple hardtail frame but it never stops evolving!
I worked in a small bike shop in Colorado Springs when I was in college in the 90’s, and Doug Bradbury had a little shop in the back. I wanted one of those aluminum frames so bad. Anyway, this OGATB is totally my jam, and that carry handle is the shit. Love it.
Oh man that had to be so cool to have him back there tinkering, he is a legend! That dual suspension he made with basically a Manitou 1 fork as the seatstays was awesome.
It all sounds familiar except I had to wait 10 years for my 1st MTB ,(’83 Sierra) cuz there was no such thing until then. I did try a couple full suspension bikes both 26″ a Fisher and then Titus Motolites. Fun for downhill but otherwise blah. The Haro Mary 29er hardtail changed my mind forever.
Beautiful buggy!
I read that article and immediately thought of you! Glad to see you receive the recognition.
Overall, your braze job finished up looking ok. 4130 often has a coating on it that doesn’t immediately cook off, so cleaning the metal before fluxing is tantamount. Fine sandpaper (inside the tube as well) and then a short soak in citric acid and rinse will clean them up. Regulator pressures of 4-6psi work best for me, and I often adjust the oxygen pressure a bit lower to get that slightly fuel rich brushy flame.
Patience and flame placement is key; keep it moving and spend more time on the thicker bits. The dropouts will need more time with the flame on them.
This is an older post, so maybe you are past all this now.
Much food for thought and action here, though I’ve meddled quiet profusely with my bike fits, this caused me to re-examine and change how and where my mass centers on the wheels. Something as simple as sliding my ass back while riding gave valuable insights into handling. Many thanks. Cheers!
What a thing of beauty! Thanks for getting me amped on a cold rainy day. How do you keep creating such sexy trail slaying machines Whit? 415mm chain stays got me hot and bothered. Fantastic color too!
I’m a north east snowboarder that is trying to relearn to ski. It’s hard work. I also have a hard boot splitboard set up that is a game changer. You should take a look at the new hardboot tech out there! Thanks for putting this out there. And glad you’re healing well!
Man Whit, what a story. Snow is always tricky to gauge. Didn’t realize you were such a ski addict. I love BC skiing but living in So Cal made it tough to get enough time in. In college we just rented xc stuff and taught ourselves. After a season we we having a blast doing runs at Mt Pinos our closest area. We used to rent a
backcountry hut at Rock Creek and spend a few days in the bowls above there. The ski out to 395 was always a big rush. We were on steel edged xc skis Voile 3 pins and big leather tele boots.
Hope you heal fast!
Thanks Mike! I hope I’m ready to ride my bike this summer, something to look forward to…
The ski and binding tech has come so far, it’s astonishing when I think what you (and me for a short while) skied on downhill. Great for touring with those leather boots and 3-pins but downhills were kinda funny and terrifying at the same time. Seeing good skiers on that setup was amazing. Revenge of the Telemarkers!
Unreal story!!! Best of luck with the surgery!!! And a speedy recovery
Good luck with your surgery tomorrow Whit! Sending healing vibes your way.
Such a great story Whit. A reminder that the unexpected happens to even the most experienced and prepared. Those tiny details matter. Get well soon! And enjoy some much deserved downtime.
That shot of you getting lifted into the helicopter is epic! That actually looks really fun (if your leg wasn’t broken). Hope you heal fast and hope the surgeries go well.
I did tib plateau fx in 2017, but non displaced. Lots of knee pain these days if I don’t stretch my quads frequently and nearly excessively. It was 2 years after hitting a tree and breaking most of my right side ribs. I’m in the middle of a slipped rib episode I assume is a side effect from that thoracic injury and make a lot of noises when I bend over to tie my shoes.
It is a, although maybe all of them are, difficult injury at a difficult age. I have some notion that gen x is first wave of adults who grew up as action sports heroes and we are all just getting to age where we have to start about how to transition to less risk or fewer big hits and it doesn’t always compute.
During the pandemic I’ve felt bad for folks that have never had a serious injury and had to experience extreme patience for processes that are out of their hands. You can do the pt when it’s time, but you can’t make that time come any faster.
Best of luck. I hope tranquility and grace find you on your journey.
Recovery is a rollercoaster; just hang on. You’ll get there.
Nice – that is a beautiful bike! I hope you are healing up!
Beauty! ^What they said plus thanks for being a friend and continuing source of inspiration.
So sorry to hear about this! You will make it.
This is tres cool.
I want one! Very nice job.
Just getting back on the Lewis and Clark Trail adventure I started a decade ago. What width and model are those WTB tires?
Those are the Resolute 700×42’s, great fast rolling all around tire tread.
Have a great time out on the trail!
Best of luck with your recovery!
Great blog and thank you for the update. Glad you are healing and back on the bike!!
No wonder Rosie approves, that bike is gorgeous!!
One of the best looking modern klunkers I’ve seen. Fun and smiles are written all over this!
That is super cool!
Crazy good bike Whit!
Just like my favorite podcasts, I am always stoked to see the next dream bike you are building. Post wherever you want. No Meta just bikes.
Ay good on ya! Insta was where I found ya Whit and you’ll be missed there. But glad to be following along here and keen to see what’s next, no matter where ya post it!
See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/adventurecycling/4110608282
Adventure Cycling Association
This is a Braxton Mountain bike, built by Sam Braxton, circa 1987. It was donated by John Schumpert, M.D. of Missoula.
Amazed you found a photo of the bike Nick saw! Thanks for sharing.
Sounds like they’re trying to establish facial recognition or something sinister. I would bail on it too. Hope that doesn’t hurt business for you at all – can’t imagine it would.
Beautiful work once again!
I love it!! Would post the geo and max tire size etc with your posts? Just really curious.
As always your work is amazing!!
Hope you back to 110% real soon!
What a fantastic story! Mike goes the extra mile for everyone of his patients. Every treatment plan is customized.
I saw you have vanished from the Interwebs! Taking a break when the queue is over? -Shawn
Meta gave me the boot from Instagram! No clue why. Just the blog now like the ole days
Hey Whit. Just figured out why no ig. I’ll be sure to check your blog. Best wishes. Michael Shibata
What did you do with the rear! 177 or 197 spacing? 83mm or 100mm bottom bracket shell? Wonder he wants it did a summer bike as well.
Enjoy your posts!!
Jay
Thanks Jay! We went with the 197 rear axle and a 100mm BSA shell. Primarily it’s a fatbike with clearance for 4.8’s at relatively short chainstays so needed the wider chainline and Q. So it is kinda a wide one to pedal as a 29+
Loving these bike posts!
I mean bikes of the past posts! Of course all your posts are about bikes, hah!
haha, thanks for clarifying but i knew what you meant! Glad you like them, they’re kinda fun to do having some hindsight to comment on now.
rad!
Hey Whit, just popping in to say thanks again for making such great machines. I truly hope to ride mine forever. I will be checking in here like these others as well. Cheers!
That is So Very COOL! Love the execution. I want that style is modern DJ geometry for the bike park.
You can’t keep building Kurstin such sick bikes without coming out here to ride with us so I can pester you with build detail questions!
Haha…well I will definitely join you all next year for a tour or two!
Here for this!
Awesome news man! Cheers to a healthy record and retuning to all the things in 23!
*recovery
*returning
🙃🙏🤙🏽
Dang man. Best of luck to you and your healing process
I’m so sorry this happened to you, urging a hard injury over time can really be difficult, and getting “back to normal” is never the same normal. I think of you often Whit. 😊👍‼️
Thanks for the update. It is crazy to see the photos of all that internal hardware. Speedy recovery and I look forward to riding with you in 2023. Here is to a better 2023!
Yay! Congrats on your recovery! (Ouch, ouch, ouch, the pictures of the leg hardware make my leg hurt in sympathy! Ouch! )
that’s another good step forward. enjoy these last weeks of recovery and here’s to a healthy, happy 2023
Would love to hear your thoughts on 26 fat vs. 27.5 fat Whit. Seems like that latter is really taking over. Also great colour choice for the powder!
I’m a big fan of 27.5 fat but may not be for everyone. Can theoretically run a narrower tire and have similar float to a fatter 26, and will fit in frames easier and with a narrower Q and chainline. But the fattest tires are still only available in 26 so if you’re riding a lot of soft snow you’re better off sticking with 26.
Still ripping! thanks for making such a fun bike.
Super stoked!!! Thanks and praise!
Just read this Whit, hoping your final recovery is quick and painless.
Great lines between the top tube and seatstays. I hope you get more requests for this style of frame.
So sick!
Fabulous frame, Whit!
hey heal fast
Good times!!!
I’m interested in the CK Headset.
$100 shipped? Email me at meriwethercycles at gmail if interested
badassery…as always!
Awesome bit of history, thanks for sharing this!
Can’t wait to see this one finished! It’s gonna be a head turner to be sure.
That was a fun read!
Thanks brother! Spent some time crafting this one.
Wow.
Looks
Amazing!!! Well done …
Thanks TK! My first dually 😂
Ohh, nice!!
Amazing work as always Whit! If ya working on a couple “stock” models then I reckon a mid-fat (4″) midtail is worth considering. I reckon like there’s a (tiny!) gap in the market there now since the Salsa Blackborow and Surly Big Fat Dummy have both been discontinued. And you’ve built enough similar bikes to be able to nail the design and fabrication on something like that.
Such a rad bike!
Interesting that you wanted to build somethin like this. I’ve had 3 Bridgestone’s ( 89 RB-1, 91 MB-2 and a 84 700 Tourer) I Was a big fan during that time. I never wanted an XO-1 as I don’t care for the Mustache bars. I did have a few early Rivendell’s, a Hillborne which I did not like as it was too stiff/poor handling and a Rambouillet (8-5-8 tubing!) which was a great bike but only fit 35mm tires.
These days all of my bike tend to be lower trail geometry Two are in the high 40’s with 700x47mm and 700 x 57 tires. (73hta and 62mm rake) Even the big green bike with 29 x 2.6″ ties is only 66mm of trail. I’m so used to riding these low trail bikes that anything else just feels slow to turn.
I hope your knee continues to heal as surgery has it’s own set of complications.
Thanks Mike!
That’s a lot of cool bikes! Other than the X0-1 we had similar tastes.
The Riv’s were such a genre of their own, and now especially with the super long chainstays.
After another week of riding the bike i’m extremely happy with how it turned out. It’s been interesting to experience the relatively low trail, being so different than what I’m used to. It really steers from the front of the tire instead of the back…a solid feeling on the road! On my OGATB with a 69 HTA and 60mm of fork offset you definitely feel the flop, involving more leaning and counter-steering from the rear of the tire like high trail mountain bikes, which are great at high speed on rough trail but that’s not how i ride most of the time anymore. I have yet to take MW-1 off road and probably won’t for awhile but i am curious how the low trail bikes handle on dirt.
One thing i learned from fork building with different rakes is that the higher rake forks tend to smooth out the chatter, my thought is because of the longer front center. But I haven’t tried all the variations so generalizations are pretty tough for me to hold on to.
That is such an insanely cool bike! Well done. The amount of thought and details is tremendous!
I have used the cross check in a budget similar role but nowhere near as well thought out. I found the cross check too flimsy and turns out the geometry is identical to a Karate Monkey if you adjust for tire size and the Karate Monkey has been my go to all around gravel type commuter with fenders forever.
Such a cool bike! Really love hearing your design and spec choices. Are those the Whiskey Winston handlebars?
I’m a pretty reluctant road cyclist myself, preferring to ride on dirt. But when a friend sold me a custom light steel tubed 54cm 650b rim brake low trail randonneuse for a great price I had to give it a go (I think the builder meant to clone it off of a Crust Lightning Bolt but I’m not sure as I’m the 3rd owner). I’ve used it with Nitto Noodle bars, Nitto x Riv Albastache bars, and currently René Herse Randonneur bars. The Albastache bars went on while I waited for the Rando bars to show up, and then those got lost in the mail, so I ended up putting many many miles on the Albastache bars including a 114 mile ride. I’m one of those people who absolutely fell in love with them. We had a headwind for a lot of that big ride so I spent most of the ride in the “hoods”. But when bimbling along the bike paths it’s so nice to be able to be on the flat parts. Another randonneur-style frame/fork is entering my life shortly so I plan to put the Albastache bars back on to get back on that XO-inspired feel. Oh, and it’s very low trail (45ish) and feels great on gravel, and sketchy on the kind of singletrack that you shouldn’t be on riding a thin-walled steel tube bike anyway.
¡que bueno!
I just saw this article great write up!
Thanks Whit!
Loved following along as always Whit. Keen to see where you take things next and also best of luck with the new knee in 2024!
You’re the mad scientist of bike builds! Mike is your enabler or you’re his!! I love it!!
I have a Funk La Ruta plus.
I’ve used it for bikepacking and only notice slight if any rear lateral flex with a seat bag….they move a lot on their own.
I’m planning to use an axle based rear rack system and hope this doesn’t put too much lateral force isolated to the rear.
I mention this as you indicated you reviewed failure loads of the design. I’m curious of your thoughts on using a rack in this manner. I plan no more 25 pounds.
Thanks for posting these builds!!
Haha… I think I’m his enabler, always a challenging build with his ideas!
I’ll be interested to hear how the new rack setup works since I really don’t know how it’ll fare. I’ve made a rack for my SilkTi that pivots at the seat tube collar and is attached at the rear dropouts. With light weight I’m sure it’ll be unrecognizable but with more weight on just the rear triangle there may be some chattering like a garbage truck. But with the La Ruta you can up the PSI and see if that helps offset the added weight… so I’m not sure what’ll happen!
What rack will you be using, OMM?
I never ever stop experimenting with new tires. They can make a bike come alive….Or make it feel terrible!
Side Note: I just wanna look at those bikes in that 1st shop/Garage pic!
So far, I picked up a pair of WTB Venture 700×50 which have handled the “gravel” around the American River Parkway pretty well this winter with only 3 rides. I’ll know more as the miles add up. They roll pretty well on pavement and clear the sandy mud pretty fast. That impressed me. The Vittoria Terrano XC’s had no traction but they are pretty much a slick. Glad to know I’m not one to keep tires.
Thanks for the update!
I love the Venture tires, way more grippy on dirt than I expected based on tread pattern. At the start they kept a lot of dirt in the tread to fling out at me, lol, but got better as they wore in. Good to know about the Terrano’s, haven’t tried those.
I want. Dare I ask, would you be willing to fabricate another? This build checks all the boxes. Please let me know if you kept all the jigs and are willing to go another round.
Unless the design is let go by Funk, I don’t feel comfortable making more. I’ve reached out to Funk to ask permission but have not received a response after a few months waiting.
Please call me: 3036536921
Please call me. I want to order one of these from you! Yes, I know Daryl (I’ve owned a la Ruta… two of them). This is next level. I’m swooning. Ready to order: 3036536921
I’m sorry but i’m not making more of these, one and done. I’ve been asked a couple of times by other people and also declined. I would reach out to Blacksheep, Ti Cycles, or Sanitas Cycles as they all make softails that could be modified to fit larger tires.
Planning my next road/gravel frame around a Sabre Pro TR 29×2.6. Gotta start with the tires first, Right?!
Indeed, especially when it’s a pretty big tire!
When might these come back in stock?
I’ll see if I have one more lying around, but I haven’t gotten a lot of interest in them. It may be best to hit up Ti Cycles for that one.
I can only imagine all the decisions your deal with and also education your customers or having to problem solve what they want.
I had a custom frame built a 29 x 2.4 drop bar monster cross about 5 years ago. I went back and forth on tubing, curved or straight seat tube, geometry, and so many other things!! I’m still happy with it.
I’ve got too many bikes right now and my go to bike is an old 2010 Moots YBB singlespeed 29. It’s still a great bike!
You also really build some out of the box bikes!!! I love what you do!!
Thanks Jay! Just those two sound like a solid quiver, keep that Moots at all costs!
Well said! The struggle is real.
I think my quiver is perfect:
1. Full suspension 170mm travel. Any mountain ride, all fun downhills, bike park, Downieville, bike packing.
2. Hard tail 29er (a Meriwether). Great for any mountain ride, any ‘gravel’ ride or race, winter rising for east cleanup
3. Klunker coaster brake. Around town, easy fire roads and mountain rides.
4. Klunker(s) with gears, rim brakes. Local trails, gravel rides or races, steeper climbs and downhills than coaster brake
You are the only one I know that has klunkers as 50% of their quiver, and one is their gravel race bike!
a lovely box of tubes for “josh”
How can I buy one?
Is that possible?
Lemme know please and SAAAWEEEEET RIG DUDE!!!! I had the Ibis Silkti. I NEVER SHOULD HAVE LET THAT ONE GO. DANG IT!!!!!!!!
Bri
I can let you know if I ever hear back from Castellano that he has made more shocks and chainstay plates but i’m pretty sure there’s not enough demand for him to order the minimum qty and pay it off over time.
Smiling after reading this as I think about my rigid steel Ritchey Outback from 1990… Rode that thing everywhere, at the crazy speeds of youth, over the same trails that now have 160mm+ travel dual suspension Enduro ‘bros zipping around chatting about specs.
The picture on the Ritchey brochure from that era is still lodged in my head: just get on a bike that can go anywhere, and explore. Simple.
This is an all timer from your que, Whit. Beautiful bike.
Money is the least important measure of success, but unfortunately we need it to survive… But now new doors can open. I’m sure your talents will be put to good use!
As a small frame builder – never making the jump to making bikes for others, just alot of frames for myself including gravel, mountain and even a full squish I have always referenced your blog and builds for help along the way. Thank you for your contribution and hope you keep showing us your experience and craftsmanship on your own projects. Thank you.
You are an artist and master of your craft! I’m happy that you were able to follow your dreams and understand the reality of it all.
You and your builds have been an inspiration!!
Wish you all the best!
Jay
Sgt. Ordway’s Last Entry, Sept. 23, 1806
“Drew out the canoes then the party all considerable much rejoiced that we have the Expedition Completed and now we look for boarding in Town and wait for our Settlement and then we entend to return to our native homes to See our parents once more as we have been So long from them.”
—John Ordway
My only regret is that when I was finally well enough to ride a Meriwether, it was beyond my means. I have my ballcap and socks and memories of what could have been. Fare well, Captain Meriwether! Huzzah! Huzzah! Huzzah!
Proceeding on…
Hans Erdman
Hard to hear, but I understand and I’m very grateful for all the wonderful things you’ve done for me. I love my Meriwethers, it’s all I ride, and it’s the connection in the word MERIWETHER that make me think of you and you’re entire crew.
Sorry you’re closing shop, but you’ve left some big tire tracks to fill. ❣️
I’m so stoked that I own a Meriwether and I’ll ride it until I’m dead. Even if that is 40 years from now.
I hope you can return to your true passion of delivering warm cookies and milk to extremely high college kids.
Yo mate! A shame it couldn’t work out for ya financially but it’s hard for me to think of a builder that’s had more success over the past decade. I’ve never had the privilege of riding one of you’re frames but everything you’ve shared here and in Instagram has been hugely inspiring, especially in the world of off-road touring. Hopefully a step away from building building full time gives you the chance to enjoy a few more rides and have bit more fun making things. Defo keep sharing if ya can. Keen to see where the future takes ya! 🙂
Dang, Whit. You’re one of the good ones. Straight rear triangles, stacked dime welds, excellent vision and execution. You know I’m a fan and I’ll be here for ya in any way possible.
It takes courage to make such a transformation. Seeing the pink Baja Divide bike you built for Nic Carman at nahbs in 2017 is largely what drew me into this adventure fabrication world! Thank you for the big inspiration, hope you enjoy fabricating more now without the business expectations. – Dan
Your ability to create a bike that does what a customer dreamed it should do is a true talent. I hope you can find something that will pay the bills and have some spare time for your passions also
I’m so happy that I was able to purchase a Meriwether from you, and it was a pleasure working with you. I wish you nothing but the best!
Well shoot Whit. I’m sorry to hear a chapter of your life is ending. I can relate. But rest assured I have absolute respect for your talent and patience. My Meriwether is a treasured possession. We are under wildfire threat and if the worst happens, I’m loading it first thing. I wish you the best in whatever you choose to do. If there is anything I can be a part of reach out. info@canyonsew.com. Your legacy from this past chapter of your life will go on for miles and years. Well done brother.
Max was a dear friend. We talked bikes, art, filmmaking and life in general. We rode, always laughing along the way. His laugh was infectious. He built me a cross bike that to this day, holds a special spot in my heart. Straddling that bike, I have been lucky enough to pull out some wins, crash, laugh, and sometimes feeling like there is no chain, just pure joy and effortless forward movement.
Max would have been proud of the collaboration and outcome of this project with Rob and Whit. I’d say his work rivaled Kent, Brad and just about anyone in the Ti space. So, with that, this is in good company.
If you are curious, here’s a little clip about Max:
Thank you for the write up and the happy tears that well up thinking about Max. As we say in the 333FAB family: Ride on Max, Ride On.
I’m Max’s widow. Thank you so much for your care in honoring his memory. I’m sure he is pleased.
Loved reading the trip report whit! Thanks for (re)sharing!!!
I’m sure he is pleased
Thanks Tarrell, I’m so sorry for your loss. I wish I got a chance to meet him. I know his spirit and legacy live on in the bikes but more importantly in the connections he made with the people.
Thanks for sharing! We are eagerly awaiting the Meriwether comeback via a tawain built 3-6 size run of the Ponderosa….
I had the same thought:)
I appreciate your writing style and content very much. I hope you can find a niche in bicycle literature. I am glad to hear you are spending more time pedaling and less time making others cycling dreams come true. Thank you for all that you give to cycling.
This excellent. I can relate to all of it, even though I never turned pro myself. After 15 years of framebuilding as a “hobby”, I had a chance to move to California where I had plans to take my framebuilding to the next level. It never happened. The town I moved to burned down in a wildfire a few months after arriving there and I lost everything, sending my life on a very different trajectory. I often wonder if not for that fire could I have “made it” as a framebuilder? My guess is that the chances were slim, at best.
I don’t own a Meriwether (because I don’t really bike) but still sad to hear this and wishing you the best on your next adventure, Whit. You went for it for 15 years — that’s a great run. Maybe time to start building ramps again?
Whit, I received this post and about 50 other posts last night. Not sure if you meant to send them out to people who subscribed to your blog, but it was a download to my email.
I’m sorry, it was unintentional. I was making old blog posts public again (made them private after using thr website for business) and it spammed all subscriber’s inboxes and I didn’t know until all those emails were sent.
Just a hobby framebuilder here, but this is a great post! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I’ve always appreciated them.
Nicely written!
I just got a second frame from Fitz, and it went just as you say: updates to the last frame, with a longer front and rear, shorter stem, and way more bikepacking zits than the 2019 frame.
Thanks Whit! Always appreciate your posts – they are articulate, honest, and instructive. Glad there are still folks like you thinking about how to make things better, at any scale!
It’s easy to glass over a new component or accessory & not consider what effort goes into it’s development. Thanks for sharing your process and some of your knowlege. Like your bikes, I feel that the beauty lies in the utility. Your aesthetic always hits me just right.
Tele-tongue was the first name for your rack that popped into my head. Kinda goofy. Maybe just a working title.
The BeBop is what I’m going to dub it. You referenced it’s trombone quality, and that instrument really came to prominence in the Bebop jazz-era. I also feel like it’s appropriate verbage to describe the vibe of many great bike rides. A win win!
Thanks for continuing to share all you’ve learned over the years with the rest of us & keeping the Merriweather spirit alive in this way.
Thanks for these posts! I really enjoy all your thoughts and insights.
For a name: Ti Rack…like getting ready for business you tie one on, and getting ready to BikePack you chose the Ti Rack TCB “take care of business”
Thanks,
Jay
Emotional Support Rack
Ooh what about removing the E?
I like that.
Spoon Rack, love it!
Nostalgia? Wait ‘til you’re my age, sonny!
Yeah, me too. It’s an interesting mix of thoughts on how some things have changed…and other things are timeless.
Hey Whit- sorry if you’ve covered this before but I’d love to know if you’d consider doing what Black Mountain Cycles, Stinner (for some), Sklar, Neuhaus do in terms of having your designs built up in Tawain to increase scale? I was so stoked on the ponderosa but pricing was jusssst still out of reach and I still dream about having one of the orangesickles in 58!
Would you consider ever doing a Tawain made run of ponderosas even just in the most popular sizes (a la Crust Derecho for example which was only made in 3 sizes)?
Would you ever take on an investor/partner to be able to “do what you love” at scale?
I’ve been enjoying reading your reflections in this time and would be curious to know your thoughts on going the route of having frames made for you vs making them yourself. Appreciate you!
Hey Christian,
Thanks for the interest and thoughtful comment. It’s something I’ve considered, and haven’t ruled out, but it’s an entirely different business model (and aside from the startup costs which are not insignificant) I wouldn’t be doing what I love anymore. I’d mostly be doing the parts of the business I enjoy the least. I’d also have trouble letting go of what people are riding and experiencing. In my opinion, frames made there are a different product from what we as small scale domestic builders can offer. To my understanding, when you get frames and forks made in Taiwan they take your design and see if it passes their fatigue tests. If it doesn’t pass you either adjust the design (beef up the frame and/or fork tubing or change the design entirely) or take on full liability yourself. If it fails their testing then they wouldn’t assume responsibility, it’d be left up to me to warranty and deal with any potential larger legal issues.
Basically, it’s not what I envisioned when creating Meriwether. Pivoting to overseas manufacturing wasn’t a long term goal. There are so many other great builders and bikes available now, so many great choices! I like that I succeeded in making something people love and will ride for a long time, and I did it myself.
…it’s a lot to get into in replying to your comment. I’ve been working on a blogpost for several weeks that talks about this but I am having trouble wrapping it up because my thoughts and opinions are still evolving…
Update on suspension forks and axle to crown measurements. Intend BC Samuri is available and for 100mm travel is about 545mm. Fox is rumored to have one coming out late next year and be a similar length for the 100 and around 565 for a 120mm. I saw a photo of a Manitou one-off but have not heard if they have a production model coming. Rock Shox will have something too but I have no clue what.
I’m afraid I’m going to have to try a 32″ setup this spring. Do you have an idea of where you think the sweet spot is for fork offset? Does 100mm feel right for bottom bracket drop? It’s interesting to think about these numbers in the context of a new platform.
It’a hard to say since I don’t have other forks to compare against, but knowing the shocks coming out are 45 and 52 it appears the market is going for more stable steering (higher trail). I think it depends on the head angle and what overall geo you want to go with. I am of the mind that steeper head angles should have more offset to add front center (another way of smoothing out the trail while keeping it responsive). Also reduces toe overlap potential. But lower offset is liked by many on the slack head angles for shortening FC since trail is out the door anyways with 65 deg HTA. Once again, it depends what you like, there’s no right answer.
For BB drop, i would go with the BB height you like on other bikes. My frame’s drop is 100 but could have been +/- 5mm, I just landed on a BB height I like with the current tire diameter.
💯 bro. I think about these variables daily. Thank you for putting it down in type.
“Strong, light, cheap. Pick two.“
Truer words…
I always learn so much from your blogs. Thank you for teaching your passion so well. You are as much a wordsmith as you are a bikesmith. Keep going!
Very interesting read. I have owned all manner of bikes including custom steel and Ti. I agree with essentially all sentiments. We all have our own priorities and resource levels. A well-designed carbon gravel bike can be had for about $2500, far less than the cost of custom steel frame alone. In my decision process, given a healthy but resoundingly finite household income, do I get the bespoke steel, or do I buy the Asia-sourced bike and take my family to Ireland? For me, for my primary bike, I usually go with custom, but stick to off-the-shelf for the bikes I use less. I have massive respect for these builders and the commitment to their craft. And the family can always go camping instead ;- )
I just want to offer a few brief thoughts. (1) I’m positively ecstatic about my Ponderosa, (2) I’d be willing pay more for a Ponderosa…or my next bike… to enjoy the personal touches Whit provided for me, (3) I think the core design of the Ponderosa, without some of the personal touches, would still be a wonderful bike for a large number of people…me included, and (4) I’d be thrilled to see Whit enjoy the rewards of factory support for a standard stock model Ponderosa…or other designs…PLUS…offering well-compensated custom and personal touches to those who want to pay for it. Oh, one more thing. I’d love for Whit to find a way back into building, because of the wonderful experience he provides for customers, but only if he make it rewarding for him.
Thank you for taking the time to lay out these arguments. I have many friends who question my judgement when I fail to consider “comparative economic advantages” when it comes to housecleaning, yard work, house repair, etc. God forbid I tell them how much my bikes cost, because they would only look at the number, and would never take the time to read something as well-thought out as this post.
The continuity of the process, the communication with the frame builder, is why I have multiple custom bikes in steel and titanium. Every time I ride them, I recall the builder of that frame and appreciate that I am rolling on movable art coupled with thoughtful design. Every time I ride them, the details of the bike – polished lugs or perfect Ti welds or the portage handle or the custom paint etc etc – put a smile on my face and the wind at my back. EVERY time I ride them, random strangers will give me a shout out at the beauty of what I am riding, and I feel lucky and blessed.
Ultimately my custom bicycles keep me connected to the community of human beings who find a calling in creating unique and beautiful things that (woohoo!) provide me immense joy. Priceless.
I can buy a bike made in Taiwan where the welder might be wearing slippers and listening to a bootlegged Black Flag cassette, or I could buy a bike made by Meriwether where I KNOW the welder is wearing slippers and listening to a bootlegged Black Flag cassette. If you don’t think those two bikes ride differently, you are out of your mind.
Exactly! 😂